Featured Lordship Salvation Defended

Maybe you didn't read what I said. IT is a past reality of something that has happened. "Received" in the past as Lord. Then the growing begins.

 

Just where in the link provided by Icon in which MacArthur defines Lordship Salvation do you find "Works Salvation". I have asked this question before and so far have received no response from anyone.

 

I don't accept "making Jesus the Lord of my life" but it is apparently common practice in SBC's!

From my childhood I have believed in the God of the Bible. From my childhood I have believed in the historical truth of the birth, the death, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. In my mind that is "easy believism" but it is not Salvation.

Salvation is a supernatural transaction between God and man and begins with regeneration or the "new birth from above" wherein that which is spiritually dead is made alive.

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel, and turns to God in faith and repentance. [The Gospel call becomes the effectual call!] In conversion the regenerate man exercises the gift of faith bestowed upon regeneration. Regeneration must precede conversion since Scripture tells us: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Corinthians 2:14]

 

From the link Icon posted:

"This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation."

How many DoGs here believe that a 'corrupted gospel' can send any of God's elect to hell?

 

I don't and I doubt that MacArthur does either.

 

What about you Icon? Do you believe that a 'corrupted gospel' can send any of God's elect to hell?

 

Check out the home page, the site is all about John MacArthur.

 

From Icon's article:

"An Introduction to Lordship Salvation

What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on Lordship Salvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent introduction to the subject."

John MacArthur is the pastor of Grace Community Church. This 'distinctive' of their's contains the same statement word for word:

"The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation."

 

All God's elect are secured at the cross and nothing can seperate them from the love of God which is In Christ Jesus.

The statement you cited spoke of the unsaved...perhaps religious persons who in real time fail of the grace of God. The elect will not fail as they are kept by the power of God.

here it is again;

While I believe God uses means to draw the elect savingly and protect them from error....the absence of those means will allow many an unsaved church member who in reality is not in the One eternal Church who will assemble on the last day...it will allow them to perish:thumbs:

If you would like me to clarify further just ask any and all questions. I view all of redemptive History through jn 6:37-44, hebrews 2:9-16,and all of Hebrews 9/10.

 

Lol, by 'savingly' you mean 'regenerationally', or born from Jerusalem aboveally', or 'born of Godally', right?

By 'means' you mean a soul winner, whether it's a parent or a Sunday School teacher or a preacher or a missionary or a co-worker, or a sermon, etc., that carries the Spirit to the elect, right?

In other words, you don't believe 'the Spirit where He willeth doth blow', He requires 'means' to carry Him.

 

kyredneck

:thumbs:

:thumbs:

Kyred...we agree on many things, in fact most things:thumbs: there are some twists and turns in the road that you take that I would not take.
I count you as a solid brother. I am not worried that you are drifting off or anything like that. there many on BB that make dangerous statements.
You are not one of them. That being said I do not agree with how you approach this and I know you believe me to be inconsistent at this point:thumbs:

I will leave this for DHK

KYRED... we are our brothers keeper correct???

6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

I would not say fruit inspectors that has a bit of a negative connotation....a few days ago you posted romans 13:8-10.

If we obey that command in a positive way we will help our brethren produce fruit in a positive way,
iron sharpening iron,
admonishing one another,
offering correction,
refusing gossip from those around us,
that will cut down on the sins of the tongue
observing a lack of spiritual conversation and seeking to redirect them
bear each others burdens,etc.... we are our brothers keeper.

They do not help his position..

We are primarily SAVED from the reigning power of Sin

That is where Lordship comes on the scene...In every aspect of life...Christ Jesus as Lord is primary ,and we are responsible to obey Him.

We are never free to sin.

Unto holiness of life under Jesus Lordship..lk 6
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

Ok...you want to contend on this...we will:thumbsup:

I very much believe;
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit...

Do you believe it???
What i mean is...The Spirit brings sinners from death to life, enabling them to welcome the word as it is brought to them....by other persons, the word preached, prayers offered, prayers answered, correction of others, instruction of others, evangelists, missionaries, Christian workers...those are the normal means used by God .

Are you saying you do not see this in the book of Acts???

Paul was told...do not even begin to hold your peace FOR I HAVE MUCH people in this city. According to you...it was not necessary to preach because you suggest the SPIRIT could just do it all by HIMSELF.

The Spirit could and does do it all by Himself with elect infants dying in infancy, and elect persons who might be mental handicaps...but that is not the norm is it?

6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Paul functions here as Ezkiels watchman, they resist , He tells them their blood is on their own head now....Paul was used as the watchman, God did not tell Paul/...hey Paul do not say anything, do not teach , or pray,...I have got this , No means are necessary....Did he?

No God used means all through Acts.....There will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship...even if the man had to hang on to the broken pieces of the Ship.:wavey:

14 But not long after there arose against it a tempestuous wind, called Euroclydon.

15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.

16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:

17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.

18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;

19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.

20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.

21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.

22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.


31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved


This is means KYRED

again;
34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.


even the broken boards were means;

43 But the centurion, willing to save Paul, kept them from their purpose; and commanded that they which could swim should cast themselves first into the sea, and get to land:

44 And the rest, some on boards, and some on broken pieces of the ship. And so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land.

 

Ok, that's what you say now, but I see inconsistencies with your LS doctrine due to your adherence to 'means' regeneration.

The statement says they're given false hope and will be 'consigned' to eternal damnation because of a 'corrupt' gospel.

The gospel does not impart life and immortality, it tells of it. I really wish you 'means regeneration' folks could grasp the simplicity of that truth. It would eliminate soooo much controversy.

OK. I may check it out and try to decipher exactly why you believe God requires 'means' to write His law upon His children's hearts.

 

I agree with you on your last statement that the new heart is ALL of God.that is part of the 95 % we agree on. I just see where God has chosen to use means.

 

Are you a person who sees yourself under a curse and needing to obey to achieve God's approval?

Or do you see yourself as a person who is free from having to obey because Christ has obeyed in your place?

The gospel of Christ frees us from the curse of the law.
It tells us that we are already approved, and that it is not by works.

Sanctification is a process that occurs following salvation and occurs in a variety of ways and means among God's children.

Those that promote Lordship salvation place an unnecessary burden upon the newly saved. Christ has done it all... we are free.

But once we have entered into the light the line is crossed, we need to live as children of the light. Discipleship, the teaching of knowing who we are in Christ and what we have in him, makes willing obedience a practice rather than a burden to bear.

Rob

 

Do those who reject Lordship Salvation reject the following Scripture?

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Consider what that great Baptist preacher, John Gill, writes about this passage.

Will anyone on this Forum claim that John Gill is teaching a Works Salvation? What I read is John Gill saying essentially the same thing MacArthur writes in the 9 points of the link provided by Icon.


Following are the 9 points of MacArthur with his comments on "easy-believism" removed! I see nothing in these 9 points that conflicts with Scripture including Ephesians 2:10!

 

Well done OR.....most teachers in the church in history wrote much on our duties and service to God. It was not considered a burden but a delight to seek to be pleasing to God in every facet of life.
Gill caught it as you quoted him;
[QUOTE because as soon as a man becomes a new creature, he is openly and visibly in Christ; and by these new principles of grace which are created in him, he is fit and ready, and in a capacity to perform good works; the new man formed in him, is formed for righteousness and true holiness; the internal principle of grace both excites unto, and qualifies for, the performance of righteous and holy actions:][/QUOTE]

This is a positive part of the Christian life....how can we be pleasing to God in every area of life.....Lord what will you have me to do???

from the puritan view of holiness;

 

You make a good point here. IME, overall the PBs do an excellent job of looking out for one another and warning of danger without the judgmental spirit . And they DO exclude offenders that won't hearken to council. But there's a point where 'preaching against sin' has a very negative effect by settling one's attention to this earthly plane to that which can touched or tasted or seen with the eye and away from the things above where Christ is seated on the right hand of God. That's one of the most grandest things about their preaching, to direct our affections to things that are above and not on the things here on earth. Their preaching can make the heart soar like a hawk and that's where our real strength lies, with the joy and the peace and the righteousness which is the kingdom of God. Excessive emphasis on 'not sinning' is ultimately discouraging and counterproductive.

 

I very much believe it.

But you in fact very much don't believe it. You hold to 'gospel regeneration' (just like the many) and ignore the threefold denial of any involvement of the flesh with the birth from above. [Jn 1:13]

What I see in Acts is Christ bringing His 'other sheep' into the fold of the kingdom of God here on earth (beginning with Cornelius in Acts 10). Paul's preaching was not populating heaven, it was bringing God's children among the nations into His kingdom, here, now.

...and I've no doubt that Christ was in them. They were regenerate.

The Spirit does indeed circumcise hearts all by Himself with no assistance whatsoever from man. But it's Christ alone who abolished death, and He brings this life and immortality to light through the gospel. The gospel does NOT convey life and immortality to the unregenerate, it tells His children of it, it enlightens us to it. 2 Tim 1:10.

Of course it's the norm, "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God".

 

The words "so walk ye in him" do not refer to growth but to obedience or Lordship. Growth may be a by-product, but the command is OBEY because that is what it means to "walk...in him".

If Lordship was condition/state of being saved there would never be this command "walk ye in him" as there would be no need for such a command if that is the state of salvation.