PreachTony
Active Member
To post 48.....
Yeah, that was basically my reaction as well, C1.
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The Blood of Jesus
- Thread starter PreachTony
- Start date
Yeah, that was basically my reaction as well, C1.
convicted1
Guest
Hey!! You stole one of my
LOL. I had to! Blame the formatting here.
PreachTony
Active Member
Whoa....
Seriously, I don't know if I'm just sheltered or something, but I have never read anything that terrible as part of a serious conversation about doctrine or the meaning of scripture. I've never heard a doctrine or theology touting anything so dreadfully wrong and unscriptural.
PreachTony
Active Member
It is; it's sickening and disgusting. I actually wrestled with myself after replying to it...having an argument with myself over giving him ground to spout such malicious and deceitful nonsense.
Here is a quote of Gerhard's that I believe is key. When I stated that nobody in the Early Church believed anything like what Gerhard believes here is the response:
'And it many times has so happened that in my search after Jesus Christ my Lord, that He made me in my search DISCOVER MOST WONDERFUL THINGS!
Jesus in the beauty of his holiness in this way suddenly shined into my eye from the darkness of my despair and longing for Him – I got a glimpse of the Pearl of Great Price in the clasp of the oyster of the deep. It shined in lustre and beauty as pure as the lily on the water above its muddy, murky bed of roots.
CHRIST IN HIS TRIUMPH! His flesh saw no corruption in suffering the death of death. But He, prevailed, on the Pathway of Providence. The LORD is a Man of war; He TRIUMPHED GLORIOUSLY” --- IN HUMILIATION AND IN DYING AND IN DEATH. Jesus “triumphed in it” : in suffering, in crucifixion, in death, then : in his GRAVE. He triumphed in it ALL!
The Glory of God in a cloud covering the ark of the testimony in the most holy of Herod’s temple, left, and went and stood over the body of Jesus in his grave in the cleft of the rock. That was how His flesh saw no corruption in death … AND, that, was how Jesus in his last Passover-Suffering-of-Yahweh underwent his baptism no man can be baptised with or he must DIE, unscathed and GLORIFIED. Because Jesus “always saw the LORD before (Him) so that his “FLESH would REST IN HOPE”—would “rest”, verily in his LIVE suffering of death until He entered into death’s rest of his grave'.
This sure sounds like Gerhard believes he has received some kind of 'divine revelation' of Christ only shedding blood in the garden of Gethsemane, being sexually abused by Roman soldiers, and a very different description of Calvary from anything I have ever read before. When I confronted Gerhard with the fact that nobody in the Early Church believed anything like this, his response was, 'I don't care.' So, I concluded that he concedes this was not believed throughout the history of Christianity.
Understandable.
So has GE declared what denomination he is a part of or what confession he abides by?
His profile says "Reformed" but I do not see much if anything in what he's said that reflects what we normally consider Reformed Theology.
I have asked him repeatedly to disclose what denomination/sect he claims. Over the years anyone who has asked him has been ignored. Under 'Home Church' in the profile he only lists the city in which he lives in South Africa. I don't think you will have much success in asking him to declare it. My best guess is that he is part of some SDA spin-off based on what is on the website he has linked at the bottom of his posts. Remember, The Branch Davidians were also an SDA spin-off with REALLY bizarre beliefs that came through 'Divine Revelation'.
And, your right, this is NOT any reformed theological position I have ever heard of.
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PreachTony
Active Member
The "Christ only bled in the Garden" idea, from what I could tell in my research, seems to spring from a doctrinal position that is part of Mormonism, but Gerhard spoke somewhat vehemently against being Mormon. It is quite confusing.
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The whole idea of Christ shedding his blood for our sins has its significance in the Old Testament concept that refers to shedding blood UNTO DEATH so that the WHOLE LIFE is given up. The sacrificial victim must be "without spot and blemish" which is a type of the SINLESS LIFE of Christ. Simply making the victim bleed did not provide a sacrifice for anyone. The victim had to shed his blood UNTO DEATH so that the LIFE in its entirety was given up in behalf of the one that the victim was offered up in behalf of.
Christ did not shed blood in the garden UNTO DEATH. Only on the cross did he shed blood UNTO DEATH. No matter how much blood he shed in the garden would be of no consequence whatsoever, unless it was UNTO DEATH.
Hence, what is "precious" about the "blood" of Christ is not the literal nature of the blood, or that Christ might have bled many times throughout his life including the garden, but of the typical significance of what it SACRIFICIALLY REPRESENTS - THE WHOLE RIGHTEOUS LIFE given in death, thus providing a substitutionary sacrifice in our behalf - his life for our life.
The "blood" that cleanses our "conscience" (Heb. 9:14) is not referring to LITERAL blood somehow made to literally clean inside our head. The "blood" is REPRESENTATIVE of the good news of the gospel that bring peace to the guilt ridden conscience in that it informs the conscience that God's righteous demands and penalty against us has been completely satisfied by the righteousness of Christ's life and death in our place - paid in full. That is what cleanses the conscience from the guilt of sin.
To me, to LIE is <<one of the most horrifying and heretical things>> there is.
And in this entire post, #19 on page http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2185215&posted=1#post2185215, of yours, <PreachTony>,
Quote:
Originally Posted by PreachTony View Post
Recently I was involved in a discussion with a fellow BB member in which I was told that the only time Jesus bled was in the Garden of Gethsemane. He claimed that Jesus's physical body was not even marred by the scourging and crucifixion, which is in direct opposition to Isaiah 52:14 "his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men." The original comment on this issue was that the Bible explicitly states Jesus bled in the Garden during His prayer, and in no other place does the Bible say Jesus bled.[/quote]
...you have not come up with an answer to my challenge,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn View Post
<<<He claimed that Jesus's physical body was not even marred>>>
Quote, please?
You have not quoted me where I would have written or have <<claimed that Jesus's physical body was not even marred>>.
You may try again. You are invited to. You in fact are CHALLENGED by myself, Gerhard Ebersoehn, to try again to QUOTE me where I <<<...claimed that Jesus's physical body was not even marred>>> … so that (like it once upon a time two millennia ago, happened with our Lord Jesus Christ Himself) TRUTH may TRIUMPH and the adversaries of TRUTH shall be "made a public spectacle of" and "Christ (shall) TRIUMPH IN IT” : “in it” : THE TRUTH as it is in Him!
And in this entire post, #19 on page http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2185215&posted=1#post2185215, of yours, <PreachTony>,
Quote:
Originally Posted by PreachTony View Post
Recently I was involved in a discussion with a fellow BB member in which I was told that the only time Jesus bled was in the Garden of Gethsemane. He claimed that Jesus's physical body was not even marred by the scourging and crucifixion, which is in direct opposition to Isaiah 52:14 "his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men." The original comment on this issue was that the Bible explicitly states Jesus bled in the Garden during His prayer, and in no other place does the Bible say Jesus bled.[/quote]
...you have not come up with an answer to my challenge,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn View Post
<<<He claimed that Jesus's physical body was not even marred>>>
Quote, please?
You have not quoted me where I would have written or have <<claimed that Jesus's physical body was not even marred>>.
You may try again. You are invited to. You in fact are CHALLENGED by myself, Gerhard Ebersoehn, to try again to QUOTE me where I <<<...claimed that Jesus's physical body was not even marred>>> … so that (like it once upon a time two millennia ago, happened with our Lord Jesus Christ Himself) TRUTH may TRIUMPH and the adversaries of TRUTH shall be "made a public spectacle of" and "Christ (shall) TRIUMPH IN IT” : “in it” : THE TRUTH as it is in Him!
Klaas Schilder, 'Christ in his Suffering', a Trilogy, 1) 'Christ in his Suffering'; 2) 'Christ on Trial'; 3) 'Christ Crucified'.
The titles in the English translation by Henry Zylstra do not justice to the meaningfulness of the titles in the Dutch, 'Christus aan den INGANG van zijn Lijden'; 2) Christus in den DOORGANG van zijn Lijden'; 3) Christus bij den UITGANG van zijn Lijden'.
This monumental work at a critical stage gave impetus to my further development in Reformed Protestant Faith.
I have given to such approach to the Work of Christ, as it were a few last strokes of the brush in the portrait of HIS "TRIUMPH IN IT" ALL.
Accuse me that I have not in my life's labour tried to GLORIFY CHRIST IN HIS TRIUMPH IN ALL HIS WORKS, and substantiate accusation with substance!
Then we can talk further with hopefully a little more understanding about Jesus Christ IN HIS GLORY IN HUMILIATION.
The titles in the English translation by Henry Zylstra do not justice to the meaningfulness of the titles in the Dutch, 'Christus aan den INGANG van zijn Lijden'; 2) Christus in den DOORGANG van zijn Lijden'; 3) Christus bij den UITGANG van zijn Lijden'.
This monumental work at a critical stage gave impetus to my further development in Reformed Protestant Faith.
I have given to such approach to the Work of Christ, as it were a few last strokes of the brush in the portrait of HIS "TRIUMPH IN IT" ALL.
Accuse me that I have not in my life's labour tried to GLORIFY CHRIST IN HIS TRIUMPH IN ALL HIS WORKS, and substantiate accusation with substance!
Then we can talk further with hopefully a little more understanding about Jesus Christ IN HIS GLORY IN HUMILIATION.
Thank you, Biblicist, for a more sober reaction and answers.
With reference to ... <<<Christ did not shed blood in the garden UNTO DEATH. Only on the cross did he shed blood UNTO DEATH. No matter how much blood he shed in the garden would be of no consequence whatsoever, unless it was UNTO DEATH.>>>
Yes, Christ did not shed BLOOD in the garden unto death;
“My SOUL is sorrowful unto exceeding death—you stay right here and keep vigil!” Mark 14:34. It is impossible for you (Peter and comrades) what now is going to happen; you are unable to witness.
“So struggling forward far enough, Jesus fell on the earth and prayed, that if it is possible for his sake the hour should pass.”
Jesus prayed the hour should pass to be fulfilled; not that it should pass by Him empty not filled to the full of his “ANGUISH OF SOUL EXCEEDING DEATH”! Not blood even though HIS, blood!
So Jesus did not <<on the cross …>> or <<only on the cross shed blood UNTO DEATH.>> No, at the end of on the cross, “God loosed the pains of death” WITH DEATH, and Jesus “gave (his) SOUL into thy hands”—the hands of his Father. Christ “laid down (his) LIFE”, by “the POWER” He “HAD” : his “POWER” to both lay down his LIFE, and, to take up his LIFE again. It does not say, ‘blood’.
Only where it has been recorded has it also been true, that Jesus shed his blood. So even there where it has been written Jesus shed his blood, there, “He gave his LIFE / laid down his LIFE”!
“If Christ rose not from the dead you are in your sins still”—and still are “DEAD in your trespasses”, no matter how much or where Jesus might have let flow his blood— except for the truth He only shed his blood where and when it has been recorded when and where He shod his blood.
Therefore:
Re:
<<<The "blood" is REPRESENTATIVE of the good news of the gospel that bring peace to the guilt ridden conscience in that it informs the conscience that God's righteous demands and penalty against us has been completely satisfied by the righteousness of Christ's life and death in our place - paid in full. That is what cleanses the conscience from the guilt of sin.>>>
Yes, so the "blood" is <<REPRESENTATIVE of the good news of the gospel>>; so that it is the Good News of the GOSPEL, that <<brings peace to the guilt ridden conscience>>— the Good News of “the POWER of God unto salvation” Romans 1:16 by which “God’s Son was declared the Christ our Lord by the Resurrection from the dead”. Romans 1:2-4.
It is the GOSPEL—the “Good News” of Jesus’ VICTORY OVER DEATH, that <<informs the conscience that God's righteous demands and penalty against us has been completely satisfied>>, and that <<by the righteousness of Christ's LIFE>> the penalty of sin, our death, has been <<paid in full … in our place>>.
<<That is what cleanses the conscience from the guilt of sin>>— even Christ’s “TRIUMPH IN IT”—“it”— his suffering of death and of dying death <<in our place>> and us, having been “co-raised together with Christ” into LIFE “in Him”.
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You, giving me, <<ground to spout such…>> —to you— <<…malicious and deceitful nonsense>>?!
You have no treasure of <nonsense> however <<malicious and deceitful…sickening and disgusting>>, to <give> me! Thanks!
But “I delivered unto you first of all that which I received…”, received neither from you, nor from Mormons or SDAs, but through a lifetime of “eating and drinking OF CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE” : “…according to the SCRIPTURES”.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Branch Davidians are a split from the Davidian church ... which is itself formerly "Shepherd's Rod".
At some point you can trace Lutheran's back to the RCC but that does not mean that you can blame everything Lutherans do or believe on Catholics.
As some point you can grace Methodists back to the Church of England and then back to the Catholic church. But that does not mean you can blame everything Methodists believe or do on Catholics.
IMHO.
Well, The Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventists Church is a split off the SDA, right? And the Waco bunch was a split from the split, right?
I'm sorry you feel I was 'blaming' the actions of these split off groups on the SDA, I was not. I simply wanted to establish why I was thinking that Gerhard's associations might well be with a split leading back to Adventist doctrines. I think if you look at his website you might conclude the same thing.
I'm just guessing here because I doubt Gerhard will ever disclose what sect he is a part of. We will just get some disjointed ramblings from him.
It is unfortunate you --- Yankee brothers of mine in Jesus Christ, cannot read or understand Afrikaans, because the 'Grieving Articles of Faith' or 'Nonconformist' Articles, are what you need to understand.
Instead I'll place an 'Informal Invitation' to our 'Home Assemblies of Sabbaths' Feast of Christ'.
Sabbaths’ Feast of Christ Home Assemblies (Reformed Protestant Faith)
To joy in the Fellowship of Christians persuaded by God of the sanctity of the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God for to be the Lord Jesus’ Day of Worship-Rest.
The urgency of Sabbaths’ celebration for the Christian Faith and Church, springs from the knowledge of the energy of God’s operation in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Ephesians 1:17-23.
The Sabbath, its engagement and enjoyment, are grounded in Divine Election and Predestination and realised in the “Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord”, whom God the Father “Declared the Son of God with Power according to the Spirit of Holiness by resurrection from the dead:— by Whom we have received Grace for the obedience of the Faith for His Name among all nations, among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ, to the end ye may be established and comforted by the mutual faith in the Gospel of His Son.” Romans 1:1...12.
Therefore we remember and celebrate “The Lord’s Day”, Sabbaths’ Eating and Drinking of the Lord’s Feast, holding to the Head nourishment being ministered, growing with the growth of God, proclaiming Jesus Christ Raised from the dead. (Col2:12-19)
“Where two or three are gathered together
in My Name, there I am in the midst of them.”
We are not a ‘Church’ – new, or, another!
We do not take money or favours!
We don’t have nor desire an ‘earthly tabernacle’ to worship!
We do not want ‘growth’ in numbers!
We do not ‘count the nation’ or record attendance!
We do not baptise!
We do not convert!
We are few, and will stay few.
We believe because God had given us faith first.
We love because God first loved us.
We love the Fellowship of Christ, and in Christ.
We love the Name of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
We love the fear of God and His Word Proclaimed.
We love the pure Gospel of God’s free Grace.
We love the knowledge and increase in the knowledge of Christ.
We are not ashamed of, nor let ourselves be judged with regard to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Ro1:16, Col2:16)
Therefore we remember and celebrate “The Lord’s Day” Sabbaths’ Eating and Drinking of the Lord’s Feast, holding to the Head nourishment being ministered, growing with the growth of God, proclaiming Jesus Christ Raised from the dead. (Col2:12-19)
“For this cause we do not cease to pray that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding.” (Col1:9)
‘Singing in our heart to the Lord’, we ‘sing with the spirit and with understanding’, ‘speaking to ourselves in Psalms’. (Col3:16, 1Cor14:15, Eph5:9,19)
We abhor self-righteousness or ‘legalism’.
We abhor self-satisfaction or complacency.
We abhor boasting or distinction of men.
... to join in Sabbath’s Celebration and Fellowship through the study and proclamation of the Word ‘according to the Scriptures’...
Instead I'll place an 'Informal Invitation' to our 'Home Assemblies of Sabbaths' Feast of Christ'.
Sabbaths’ Feast of Christ Home Assemblies (Reformed Protestant Faith)
To joy in the Fellowship of Christians persuaded by God of the sanctity of the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God for to be the Lord Jesus’ Day of Worship-Rest.
The urgency of Sabbaths’ celebration for the Christian Faith and Church, springs from the knowledge of the energy of God’s operation in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Ephesians 1:17-23.
The Sabbath, its engagement and enjoyment, are grounded in Divine Election and Predestination and realised in the “Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord”, whom God the Father “Declared the Son of God with Power according to the Spirit of Holiness by resurrection from the dead:— by Whom we have received Grace for the obedience of the Faith for His Name among all nations, among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ, to the end ye may be established and comforted by the mutual faith in the Gospel of His Son.” Romans 1:1...12.
Therefore we remember and celebrate “The Lord’s Day”, Sabbaths’ Eating and Drinking of the Lord’s Feast, holding to the Head nourishment being ministered, growing with the growth of God, proclaiming Jesus Christ Raised from the dead. (Col2:12-19)
“Where two or three are gathered together
in My Name, there I am in the midst of them.”
We are not a ‘Church’ – new, or, another!
We do not take money or favours!
We don’t have nor desire an ‘earthly tabernacle’ to worship!
We do not want ‘growth’ in numbers!
We do not ‘count the nation’ or record attendance!
We do not baptise!
We do not convert!
We are few, and will stay few.
We believe because God had given us faith first.
We love because God first loved us.
We love the Fellowship of Christ, and in Christ.
We love the Name of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
We love the fear of God and His Word Proclaimed.
We love the pure Gospel of God’s free Grace.
We love the knowledge and increase in the knowledge of Christ.
We are not ashamed of, nor let ourselves be judged with regard to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Ro1:16, Col2:16)
Therefore we remember and celebrate “The Lord’s Day” Sabbaths’ Eating and Drinking of the Lord’s Feast, holding to the Head nourishment being ministered, growing with the growth of God, proclaiming Jesus Christ Raised from the dead. (Col2:12-19)
“For this cause we do not cease to pray that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding.” (Col1:9)
‘Singing in our heart to the Lord’, we ‘sing with the spirit and with understanding’, ‘speaking to ourselves in Psalms’. (Col3:16, 1Cor14:15, Eph5:9,19)
We abhor self-righteousness or ‘legalism’.
We abhor self-satisfaction or complacency.
We abhor boasting or distinction of men.
... to join in Sabbath’s Celebration and Fellowship through the study and proclamation of the Word ‘according to the Scriptures’...
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