Featured Held over in Paradise????

Nope...did not miss it at all. In fact that just exposed your agenda... Blessed wife toasted you without batting an eyelash.

Seriously Steaver....you post from Hebrews 10 which teaches particular redemption and you do not even realize as you post it that you have missed the forrest for the trees.:laugh:

If you were to be taken seriously...I would help you, but you have disqualified yourself.

 

Well the Calvinist Isaiah thought so;

from jn 12;

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

isa6...before the cross-
6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

perhaps these slipped by you Steaver, or how about this;


Okay Steaver...the Calvinist Jn speaks of the pre incarnate glory here also;

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.


he mentioned this in his High priestly prayer for the Elect....opps...does that disturb you Steaver....I mentioned the Elect:laugh:

 

You took less than a minute to respond and it shows Stever.

You do not grasp the significance of this verse as you are mis-using it here.

the Spirit has always been present with the people of God.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.


When the church was credentialed at Pentecost was a transition from Old Covenant to new Covenant...we do read of saints being sealed and indwelt.

Salvation was not possible unless it was wrought by the Spirit of God....

Anyone saved was saved by the work of the Spirit.

 

Aw now we have a classic example of you twisting what people said. I agree with you on the idea of Paradise NOT on the idea that it destroyed Calvinism. In fact this whole thread has been about you not understanding that those two things have nothing to do with each other and acting shocked that you have some common ground with a Calvinist.

 

The law clearly set up a process for atonement in Leviticus. God even uses the word atonement. The sacrifice of animals offered no permanent forgiveness of sin. They were a shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus. If the had to effect, why did God set the system up as a way for atonement? He made it clear, that this is how they reconciled themselves with God.

The blood of animals was a poor sacrifice and had to be conducted yearly for atonement. I will give you has much as they were symbolic of Christ sacrifice and the power that is that sacrifice....let me give you this analogy. When we go to the grocery store an acceptable form of payment is a check. This check has no real value. It is promise of real payment to come, yet the grocer accepts payment and gives you goods. The same principles are applies in OT sacrifice. God accepted this payment(animal sacrifice) under the promise of future payment of debt with real currency (blood of Christ). God can full accept this animal sacrifice, check if you will, as payment. Since this check was backed by the promise of payment by God himself, who promised the Messiah. To say there is not atonement in the OT, is to discount the book of Leviticus and the entire bible its self. The process for atonement is clearly present for God's people before the crucifixion.

 

Are you referring to different plans of existence or saying something like "Heaven may consist of the Holy court, new Jerusalem, and that which is surrounding it, may be referred to as paradise"?

 

But your argument is that the thief cannot have went to heaven, he had to go to paradise, since his sins weren't atoned for. You acknowledge that Christ work of atonement was done. Christ's life is what earned righteousness for the believers. So the thief received atonement, he was imputed with the righteousness is of Christ. There is nothing that would prevent him for being in God's presence. The thief as been cleansed and made righteous.

 

--It hath been good before Darius, and he hath established over the kingdom satraps -- a hundred and twenty -- that they may be throughout the whole kingdom, and higher than they three presidents, of whom Daniel [is] first, that these satraps may give to them an account, and the king have no loss. Then this Daniel hath been overseer over the presidents and satraps, because that an excellent spirit [is] in him, and the king hath thought to establish him over the whole kingdom.(Dan. 6:1-3 YLT)

Then David in Psa. 51 cried out for God not to remove His Spirit from him...

 

You don't know he wasn't in the presence of the Father. The ascension Jesus is talking to Mary about is the ascension of the resurrected body. Christ as yet to go set at God's right hand. This does not say anything about the thief or the divine nature of Jesus.

 

But the Spirit was with them... Not in them(John 14:17) The Holy Spirit has always been here, even in OT. Indwelling was not wide spread, nor was in permanent in most. The Holy Spirit has several functions. To some up the "coming of the Holy Spirit" that Christ is referring to act as the advocate. He applies the work of Christ. The work of Christ was that of redemption. Regeneration is a separate work that is done by the Holy spirit, I think you agree with this. Regeneration is the renewal or changing of the disposition of ones heart. Of the top of my head, 2 Chronicles chapter 30, shows God changing the the heart of tribe Judah. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Many places in OT, prophets and Kings were filled with the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was an active member of The Trinitarian(I hope this is a word ) God. No doubt He(Holy Spirit) is much more active in the NT believer. When I get home, I will look at regeneration more Steaver. Good line of questioning. Very thought provoking.

 

Post 36-40 is where you in context try to twists my words to say that I agreed with you that Calvinism is destroyed. It is very clear to anyone that looks at the whole exchange that you were trying to tell Icon that I agreed with you at about Calvinism destroyed. I have seen you do that on other treads so it is not surprising to me in the least bit, but I am not shy about calling people on twisting my words as I don't appreciate the false witness.

 

I was thinking about thus topic last night and I think Stever may get caught in his own trap if he is not careful. The Calvinist like me who also believes in Paradise has no problem reconcile the idea since God is sovereign and having people pre cross go to Paradise in no way lessens His Sovereignty.

What I would like hear from Stever how he believes one got to Paradise pre cross?