Held over in Paradise????

[Iconoclast]

Maybe you missed the part where she agrees with me :smilewinkgrin:

Nope...did not miss it at all. In fact that just exposed your agenda... Blessed wife toasted you without batting an eyelash.

Seriously Steaver....you post from Hebrews 10 which teaches particular redemption and you do not even realize as you post it that you have missed the forrest for the trees.:laugh:

If you were to be taken seriously...I would help you, but you have disqualified yourself.

 

[steaver]

She understands very well. She rejects your man centered theology for the biblical one.
You are a legend in your mind, but have not proven anything in here at all.

:laugh::laugh: really destroyed:laugh:

Answer me something brother, can Calvinism stand without a pre-cross, pre-glorification of Jesus Christ regeneration theology?

 

[steaver]

If you were to be taken seriously...I would help you, but you have disqualified yourself.

Ole darn it! :tear:

 

[Iconoclast]

Answer me something brother, can Calvinism stand without a pre-cross, pre-glorification of Jesus Christ regeneration theology?

Well the Calvinist Isaiah thought so;

from jn 12;

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

isa6...before the cross-
6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

perhaps these slipped by you Steaver, or how about this;


Okay Steaver...the Calvinist Jn speaks of the pre incarnate glory here also;

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.


he mentioned this in his High priestly prayer for the Elect....opps...does that disturb you Steaver....I mentioned the Elect:laugh:

 

[steaver]

Well the Calvinist Isaiah thought so;

from jn 12;

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

isa6...before the cross-
6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

perhaps these slipped by you Steaver, or how about this;


Okay Steaver...the Calvinist Jn speaks of the pre incarnate glory here also;

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.


he mentioned this in his High priestly prayer for the Elect....opps...does that disturb you Steaver....I mentioned the Elect:laugh:

John 7:39 - "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

 

[Iconoclast]

John 7:39 - "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

You took less than a minute to respond and it shows Stever.

You do not grasp the significance of this verse as you are mis-using it here.

the Spirit has always been present with the people of God.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.


When the church was credentialed at Pentecost was a transition from Old Covenant to new Covenant...we do read of saints being sealed and indwelt.

Salvation was not possible unless it was wrought by the Spirit of God....

Anyone saved was saved by the work of the Spirit.

 

[blessedwife318]

Maybe you missed the part where she agrees with me :smilewinkgrin:

Aw now we have a classic example of you twisting what people said. I agree with you on the idea of Paradise NOT on the idea that it destroyed Calvinism. In fact this whole thread has been about you not understanding that those two things have nothing to do with each other and acting shocked that you have some common ground with a Calvinist.

 

[McCree79]

With all due respect brother, you totally ignored all of the scripture I posted and all of my comments I made pertaining to those scriptures. Hebrews makes it perfectly clear, the bulls and goats did not take away the sins. Not only did it not have a lasting effect, it had NO effect. It's only purpose was to point towards the Messiah and the necessity of the shedding of His blood.

The law clearly set up a process for atonement in Leviticus. God even uses the word atonement. The sacrifice of animals offered no permanent forgiveness of sin. They were a shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus. If the had to effect, why did God set the system up as a way for atonement? He made it clear, that this is how they reconciled themselves with God.

The blood of animals was a poor sacrifice and had to be conducted yearly for atonement. I will give you has much as they were symbolic of Christ sacrifice and the power that is that sacrifice....let me give you this analogy. When we go to the grocery store an acceptable form of payment is a check. This check has no real value. It is promise of real payment to come, yet the grocer accepts payment and gives you goods. The same principles are applies in OT sacrifice. God accepted this payment(animal sacrifice) under the promise of future payment of debt with real currency (blood of Christ). God can full accept this animal sacrifice, check if you will, as payment. Since this check was backed by the promise of payment by God himself, who promised the Messiah. To say there is not atonement in the OT, is to discount the book of Leviticus and the entire bible its self. The process for atonement is clearly present for God's people before the crucifixion.

 

[McCree79]

How many levels of heaven are there? It appears one of them was called Paradise. The scriptures make it very clear, no one could enter the presence of God, the holy of holies, apart from Jesus Christ's atonement, resurrection and glorification having been accomplished.

Are you referring to different plans of existence or saying something like "Heaven may consist of the Holy court, new Jerusalem, and that which is surrounding it, may be referred to as paradise"?

 

[McCree79]

I already addressed the thief on the cross, he was part of my argument for Paradise not being in the presence of God (heaven).

The atonement was finished, the resurrection and glorification was not.

John7:38-39, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

John20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Question for you, where was Jesus at, and the thief He said would be with him that very day, if they were not with the Father? We know Jesus said to the thief he would be with Him in Paradise that day, and Paradise obviously was not in the presence of the Father......

But your argument is that the thief cannot have went to heaven, he had to go to paradise, since his sins weren't atoned for. You acknowledge that Christ work of atonement was done. Christ's life is what earned righteousness for the believers. So the thief received atonement, he was imputed with the righteousness is of Christ. There is nothing that would prevent him for being in God's presence. The thief as been cleansed and made righteous.

 

[convicted1]

John 7:39 - "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

--It hath been good before Darius, and he hath established over the kingdom satraps -- a hundred and twenty -- that they may be throughout the whole kingdom, and higher than they three presidents, of whom Daniel [is] first, that these satraps may give to them an account, and the king have no loss. Then this Daniel hath been overseer over the presidents and satraps, because that an excellent spirit [is] in him, and the king hath thought to establish him over the whole kingdom.(Dan. 6:1-3 YLT)

Then David in Psa. 51 cried out for God not to remove His Spirit from him...

 

[McCree79]

I already addressed the thief on the cross, he was part of my argument for Paradise not being in the presence of God (heaven).

The atonement was finished, the resurrection and glorification was not.

John7:38-39, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

John20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Question for you, where was Jesus at, and the thief He said would be with him that very day, if they were not with the Father? We know Jesus said to the thief he would be with Him in Paradise that day, and Paradise obviously was not in the presence of the Father......

You don't know he wasn't in the presence of the Father. The ascension Jesus is talking to Mary about is the ascension of the resurrected body. Christ as yet to go set at God's right hand. This does not say anything about the thief or the divine nature of Jesus.

 

[steaver]

Aw now we have a classic example of you twisting what people said. I agree with you on the idea of Paradise NOT on the idea that it destroyed Calvinism. In fact this whole thread has been about you not understanding that those two things have nothing to do with each other and acting shocked that you have some common ground with a Calvinist.

Aw now we have you twisting what I said :smilewinkgrin: I never said you agree with the destroying Calvinism remark, that would be silly seeing how you are still a Calvinist. What you agreed with was the OP :thumbsup: You guys got twisting on the brain, yet no one can provide one quote for quote when I did this....no....not one. Why is that.....hmmmmmm....hidden agenda maybe??? (Not so much you though sister, this is only the first time you posted such remark. Don't let them bring you down)

 

[steaver]

But your argument is that the thief cannot have went to heaven, he had to go to paradise, since his sins weren't atoned for. You acknowledge that Christ work of atonement was done. Christ's life is what earned righteousness for the believers. So the thief received atonement, he was imputed with the righteousness is of Christ. There is nothing that would prevent him for being in God's presence. The thief as been cleansed and made righteous.

Not quite. My argument is that regeneration was needed to go into the presence of God (heaven) the "holies". The atonement was complete, but the Spirit was not yet given for Jesus was not yet glorified John 7:38-39. Jesus said to Mary, "I have NOT YET ascended to the Father".

 

[steaver]

You don't know he wasn't in the presence of the Father. The ascension Jesus is talking to Mary about is the ascension of the resurrected body. Christ as yet to go set at God's right hand. This does not say anything about the thief or the divine nature of Jesus.

Now you trying to come up with anything in order to make sense of it all.

I think Jesus didn't sparse His words when He told Mary "I have NOT YET ascended to My Father". Pretty clear to me, and most. You want me to say, "well no Jesus, you have been with the Father, your not making any sense Jesus".

The scripture is clear, Jesus told the thief, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Jesus told Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:"

Hebrews makes it clear, nobody can go into the presence of God without the new birth.

 

[McCree79]

Not quite. My argument is that regeneration was needed to go into the presence of God (heaven) the "holies". The atonement was complete, but the Spirit was not yet given for Jesus was not yet glorified John 7:38-39. Jesus said to Mary, "I have NOT YET ascended to the Father".

But the Spirit was with them... Not in them(John 14:17) The Holy Spirit has always been here, even in OT. Indwelling was not wide spread, nor was in permanent in most. The Holy Spirit has several functions. To some up the "coming of the Holy Spirit" that Christ is referring to act as the advocate. He applies the work of Christ. The work of Christ was that of redemption. Regeneration is a separate work that is done by the Holy spirit, I think you agree with this. Regeneration is the renewal or changing of the disposition of ones heart. Of the top of my head, 2 Chronicles chapter 30, shows God changing the the heart of tribe Judah. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Many places in OT, prophets and Kings were filled with the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was an active member of The Trinitarian(I hope this is a word [emoji2]) God. No doubt He(Holy Spirit) is much more active in the NT believer. When I get home, I will look at regeneration more Steaver. Good line of questioning. Very thought provoking.

 

[blessedwife318]

Aw now we have you twisting what I said :smilewinkgrin: I never said you agree with the destroying Calvinism remark, that would be silly seeing how you are still a Calvinist. What you agreed with was the OP [emoji106] You guys got twisting on the brain, yet no one can provide one quote for quote when I did this....no....not one. Why is that.....hmmmmmm....hidden agenda maybe??? (Not so much you though sister, this is only the first time you posted such remark. Don't let them bring you down)

Post 36-40 is where you in context try to twists my words to say that I agreed with you that Calvinism is destroyed. It is very clear to anyone that looks at the whole exchange that you were trying to tell Icon that I agreed with you at about Calvinism destroyed. I have seen you do that on other treads so it is not surprising to me in the least bit, but I am not shy about calling people on twisting my words as I don't appreciate the false witness.

 

[blessedwife318]

I was thinking about thus topic last night and I think Stever may get caught in his own trap if he is not careful. The Calvinist like me who also believes in Paradise has no problem reconcile the idea since God is sovereign and having people pre cross go to Paradise in no way lessens His Sovereignty.

What I would like hear from Stever how he believes one got to Paradise pre cross?

 

[steaver]

Post 36-40 is where you in context try to twists my words to say that I agreed with you that Calvinism is destroyed. It is very clear to anyone that looks at the whole exchange that you were trying to tell Icon that I agreed with you at about Calvinism destroyed. I have seen you do that on other treads so it is not surprising to me in the least bit, but I am not shy about calling people on twisting my words as I don't appreciate the false witness.

Oh my sister. You are becoming one of them. I even tell you I was not speaking about Calvinism destroyed and you insist I was. Sad. So sad.

 

[steaver]

I was thinking about thus topic last night and I think Stever may get caught in his own trap if he is not careful. The Calvinist like me who also believes in Paradise has no problem reconcile the idea since God is sovereign and having people pre cross go to Paradise in no way lessens His Sovereignty.

What I would like hear from Stever how he believes one got to Paradise pre cross?

By trusting in the Living God Jehohvah!!!!! Faith alone