Seventh Day Adventists

[Rebel]

If Bob is still around, I would like to ask him this: Does the SDA teach that Sunday worship is, or will be, the mark of the Beast?

Also, another thing that always bothered me about the SDA is the doctrine of the investigative judgment. Where is that in scripture? In my opinion, this was invented because of the failed prophecy of William Miller.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Soul Sleep is another scary LDS doctrine.

 

[Yeshua1]

If Bob is still around, I would like to ask him this: Does the SDA teach that Sunday worship is, or will be, the mark of the Beast?

Also, another thing that always bothered me about the SDA is the doctrine of the investigative judgment. Where is that in scripture? In my opinion, this was invented because of the failed prophecy of William Miller.

Their false prophetess manitained that in the future that any who worshipped on sunday was indeed taking mark of the beast, and the doctrine of yjay Judgement was ONLY invented in her mind, as it has NO support in the scriptures themselves!

 

[Rebel]

Soul Sleep is another scary LDS doctrine.

You meant SDA?

Anyway, yes, it is based on the view that the soul is mortal, not immortal. It is a view that has been held by various individuals and groups throughout church history, including Martin Luther.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

You meant SDA?

Anyway, yes, it is based on the view that the soul is mortal, not immortal. It is a view that has been held by various individuals and groups throughout church history, including Martin Luther.

SDA, yes.

And you cannot reconcile a mortal soul with scripture.


Edited to add…..

I attend the Cowboy Camp Meetings on Saturday nights, when I can. It is an apostate group of the LDS, pretty much preaching a toned-down Fundie message, and no weird stuff. I've never heard anything but solid gospel preached.


Edited AGAIN to add….apostate SDA church. I always make that mistake.

 

[Rebel]

SDA, yes.

And you cannot reconcile a mortal soul with scripture.
Edited to add…..

I attend the Cowboy Camp Meetings on Saturday nights, when I can. It is an apostate group of the LDS, pretty much preaching a toned-down Fundie message, and no weird stuff. I've never heard anything but solid gospel preached.

Of course, those who hold to the doctrine believe it is scriptural. They say that the concept of an immortal soul came from Greek philosophy and religion, not from the Bible. I disagree.

My dad tended to hold to soul sleep, and he was a Baptist.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

There is no smoking-gun reference to an immortal soul in the Old Testament, and the Greeks were around before Christ first spoke of eternity. So they may be correct that they were first, but they are wrong that it's not biblical.

 

[Rebel]

There is no smoking-gun reference to an immortal soul in the Old Testament, and the Greeks were around before Christ first spoke of eternity. So they may be correct that they were first, but they are wrong that it's not biblical.

I think you have it right.

Another historical note: Some of the early Mennonites held to soul sleep, but I don't believe they do now.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Here's Young's Literal Translation of Psalms 23:6
Only -- goodness and kindness pursue me, All the days of my life, And my dwelling `is' in the house of Jehovah, For a length of days!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

From <Sabbath>, to <soul sleep>, to <mark of the beast>, to <LDS> ... to whereto next?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

From <Sabbath>, to <soul sleep>, to <mark of the beast>, to <LDS> ... to whereto next?

Dutch Reformed maybe :laugh:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dutch Reformed maybe :laugh:

Jesus said where there are two or three. So it won't be to True Believers ever.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Rebel,

Anyway, yes, it is based on the view that the soul is mortal, not immortal. It is a view that has been held by various individuals and groups throughout church history, including Martin Luther.

Although I do not agree with many of the SDA teachings, including the two that you mention in your OP, I do believe that the soul is mortal. Perhaps a few Scriptures without getting involved in a discussion here on this topic:
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:17 (KJV): But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Daniel 12:2 (KJV):And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Acts 2:31-32 (KJV): 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
I personally believe that it is an important subject, and worthy of careful consideration.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Rebel]

Greetings Rebel,
Although I do not agree with many of the SDA teachings, including the two that you mention in your OP, I do believe that the soul is mortal. Perhaps a few Scriptures without getting involved in a discussion here on this topic:
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:17 (KJV): But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Daniel 12:2 (KJV):And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Acts 2:31-32 (KJV): 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
I personally believe that it is an important subject, and worthy of careful consideration.

Kind regards
Trevor

I do, too. How would one determine the truth since there seem to be scriptures which say or imply different things on the subject?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rebel,

I do, too. How would one determine the truth since there seem to be scriptures which say or imply different things on the subject?

My situation is perhaps different, but you may assess this as blissful ignorance. I was brought up in an environment that taught the mortality of man, who after death simply returns to the dust to await the resurrection at the return of Jesus. This position was constantly reinforced in Sunday School, Sunday Evening Public Addresses, and a large amount of literature.

I agree that there are some difficult passages, but these have to my mind been gradually resolved and understood. The few quotations that I mentioned are amongst my favourites and form the basis of my understanding. After many years there are still a few passages that are in the difficult or too hard basket. Some of these I can be content with, but some I would be hard pressed to give a convincing answer to someone of the opposite opinion.

So my only advice at this stage is to keep an open mind, trying to allow the Word of God to have its effect in shaping our thoughts and understanding.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

If Bob is still around, I would like to ask him this: Does the SDA teach that Sunday worship is, or will be, the mark of the Beast?

Also, another thing that always bothered me about the SDA is the doctrine of the investigative judgment. Where is that in scripture? In my opinion, this was invented because of the failed prophecy of William Miller.

Bob has been pretty lax recently in getting back to this board - sorry for missing this post so long.

The Seventh-day Adventist church does teach that Sabbath breaking will one day in the future be a deciding issue between the Rev 14:12 group that "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" and those who do not. But the church does not say that this is presently the case. It is a prediction about a future event "predicted".

William Miller never accepted the "Investigative Judgment" doctrine. But you can find it in Daniel 7 where the "court sits and the books were opened" that is all that is meant by the term -- judgment that is based on evidence -- recorded evidence and that is observable by those in the courtroom in heaven as described by Daniel.

The rule used in that judgement is described in detail in Romans 2:6-16.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Soul Sleep is another scary LDS doctrine.

I am not at all convinced that Mormons believe in the John 11 and 1Thess 4 teaching on soul sleep.

Do you have a source for that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

SDA, yes.

And you cannot reconcile a mortal soul with scripture.


Edited to add…..

I attend the Cowboy Camp Meetings on Saturday nights, when I can. It is an apostate group of the LDS, pretty much preaching a toned-down Fundie message, and no weird stuff. I've never heard anything but solid gospel preached.


Edited AGAIN to add….apostate SDA church. I always make that mistake.

The easiest way to reconcile "mortal man" or "mortal soul" with scripture is...
1. Count the number of times you find "immortal soul" in scripture. Answer - zero.

2. Count the number of times you find "mortal man" or "this mortal must put on immortality" in scripture.

3. Count the number of times you find God who "alone possesses immortality " in scripture.

4. Count the number of times you find "those that sleep" or "The DEAD in Christ" in scripture.

5. Read 1Thess 4.

"fear Him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28

so many ways.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings Rebel,
Although I do not agree with many of the SDA teachings, including the two that you mention in your OP, I do believe that the soul is mortal. Perhaps a few Scriptures without getting involved in a discussion here on this topic:
Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This is why you will never understand the abc's of Biblical salvation. First, will you admit that the term "life" is plural in the Hebrew?

Second, animals are just as mortal biologically as man. However, there is more than mere biological life imparted to man from God. There is something that animals do not possess in their creative make up as creatures. Man is made to operate on both a biological level and a spiritual level. Just as biological life is essential to operate on a biological level so is spiritual life necessary to operate on a spiritual level. That is why man is a tri-partite being of more than mere "soul" but is "spirit" in addition to that (1 Thes. 5:23; heb. 4:12).

Moreover, God is able to exist apart from a physical body as "spirit" as well as exist within a physical body as "spirit" and so is man. Paul makes this very clear with the double Aorist infinitives "to be" showing simultaneous action that it is possible "to be present" in the body and then instanteously depart from the body and be present in heaven with God. However, your mere biological life cannot accommodate the full Biblical view of man.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV): But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Do you admit that in some sense Adam died "in the day" but in another sense he died at the age of 930 years? Before you answer that, consider this, do you admit that the Ephesians were "dead" in some sense while yet physically alive prior to being "quickened" by God in Ephesians 2:1,5 and therefore this quickening also occurred prior to the resurrection while they were still physically alive within their bodies?

Your position on death is a mere segment of the fuller picture of the Biblical view of death.

Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

However, this is merely speaking of the biological life of man as you fully well know that Solomon spoke of the spirit of man continuing after the physical demise of biological life and returning to God, while Jesus explictly denied that the soul ceased with the biological death of the body and continued to exist at least until after the Great White judgment seat (Mt. 10:28). Thus again, your limiting to mere biological life does not meet the fuller Biblical view of the nature of man.

Daniel 12:2 (KJV):And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Just compare the previoius verse you quoted to this verse and it is obvious that it is the decomposed body that goes back to dust and that takes the position of a sleeping body in the dust. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 destroys your whole position as there are not only "spirits" being brought back with Christ but those alive on earth are not transformed until the physical bodies of the dead are reunited with those Christ brought back with him.

Acts 2:31-32 (KJV): 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Quoting this text is no support for you theories. The resurrection has to do with the physical body from the grave. The "soul not left in hell" does not support your position either as the term "hades" can refer to the state of the dead body and soul. The Old Testament divided hades into "lowest" hades and the "mouth" of hades or upper hades. Upper hades is where the bones of men are spread or the grave. However, lowest hades is the state of the dead spirit that David was saved from entering by redemption. Christ on the other had took our place in the state of death in regard to both body and soul.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Biblicist,

I appreciate your response. I recall discussing some of these verses with you on another thread. I do not want to repeat this on this thread, especially as it is a SDA thread. I find your answers may satisfy those who believe in immortal souls, but your answers do not convince me on this subject as a whole as I believe the soul is mortal. In other words man as a complete being is mortal, subject to death and decay, and after death awaits unconscious in the dust for the resurrection at the return of Christ. Neither do your answers change my present understanding of these particular verses.

Kind regards
Trevor