Featured John:6:38-39

Yet you cite folks like W&Z who do not hold your point of view --though you claim they do. You put words in their mouths before and after your quotations of them. That is dishonest of you DHK. It is plain for all of us to see.

 

You are drifting away from the context and therefore the understanding of the verse.
What was Paul talking about?
He was speaking about understanding the Scriptures--illumination--understanding the "deep things of God." He begins talking about this in 1Cor.2:9,10, and even before that, but for our purposes we will start here:

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
God reveals the deep things of God by His Spirit to the spiritual Christian, not to the carnal Christian. The latter is unable to understand such truths.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
--Paul uses a comparison here. The first part of the comparison actually does speak of "the natural man," though it doesn't use that particular adjective.
IOW, only the man knows what thoughts he himself is thinking.
And, only the Spirit of God knows the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
--Thankfully, compared to the rest of the world, God has given us "The Spirit which is of God," that we might know "the deep things of God," or those things which are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
--These are the things that Paul spoke--spiritual things; contrary to what the false teachers spoke--carnal things. They spoke spiritual truths, even "the deep things of God." They spoke the wisdom of men which also was carnality.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--The natural man (of the flesh, carnal, lit. animal desires) does not receive the things of the Spirit of God (the deep things of the Spirit of God), neither can he know them, because he can't judge them.
He can understand the gospel, basic truths, but not the deep truths of God.
If what I say is not true, then all tract distribution, Bible distribution, and basic evangelism would be in vain. The natural man cannot understand it according to most Cals. But that is not what it is teaching. It is teaching that the "deep truths of God cannot be understood by "carnal minds," of the flesh, or of the world. IOW, they are not spiritual.

Therefore they are contrasted to those that are spiritual in verses 15 and 16, and those that do have the mind of Christ.
And in chapter 3 Paul addresses them as Carnal Christians because they are still immature in their standing before Christ, babes in Christ, still drinking the milk of God's Word, unable to proceed any further, as well as being outwardly carnal as is evidenced by the rest of the epistle.

 

The person without the Spirit cannot accept or receive the things that come from the Spirit of God. That individual cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

That verse is speaking in absolutely stark statements DHK. There is no curve here. It is not speaking of those with less spiritual discernment than others. This person, in no uncertain terms does not know God. God does not know them. This person does not have the Holy Spirit! This one is not saved. No matter how much you try to turn Scripture into silly putty --it will not work for you. Do not use the Word of God in such a blatantly devious way.

Not spiritual means without the Spirit.

 

It nowhere says "without the Spirit." You are reading into the verse something that isn't there.
The natural man is a carnal man, a worldly man, and that is all.

He is not spiritual. There are many Christians that are not spiritual.
Paul was rebuking the Corinthians for not being spiritual. They were not spiritual for they were only at the level of drinking milk and not able to eat meat. They were carnal and not spiritual. He never even hinted that they were not saved. But he did say that they were carnal. Now you are beginning to deny Paul's teaching in chapter 3. He told them they were not spiritual but carnal. Yet he calls them brethren, or "in Christ."

 

DHK has a current campaign. Despite the biblical facts that someone without the Spirit cannot accept or understand the things that come from the Spirit of God --even considers them foolishness because they are discerned only through the Spirit which this person does not have. DHK somehow is trying to pursuade people that that person described in 1 Cor. 2:14 is just on a lower plane --still a Christian --just can't understand deep truths.

Now DHK is showing how to wrongly divide the Word of Truth. He is putting on a personal demonstration that is a wonder to behold. He considers himself a Fundamentalist. Yet by twisting a passage of Scripture to say the exact opposite is surely a non-Fundamentalist approach to the Word of God.

For shame DHK.

 

Scripture has many names to describe professing Christians who are not spiritual.

They are called wells without water, filthy dreamers, brute beasts, trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars; mouths speaking swelling words; the wicked, tares, goats, reprobate, lukewarm, liars, ungodly, deceivers, accursed, of the flesh, evil trees, those who love not the truth, those who honor with lips and not hearts; hypocrites, false prophets, Christ deniers, mockers, sons of Satan, and antichrists.

 

1 Corinthians 2:14 :

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." (NIV)
Notice that the person without the Spirit considers the things of God foolishness.

Look at 1 Cor. 1:18:
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The ones who consider the message of the cross foolishness are perishing --they are lost --they are unsaved. The message of the cross is from the Spirit of God. But these people reject the message from the Spirit of God. They cannot understand --they are not able to. Does it have to be spelled out for you that those perishing are without the Spirit of God?

In both 1 Cor. 1:18 and 1 Cor. 2:14 certain ones consider the things of God to be foolishness. In both passages those folks are perishing. They are unregenerate --unsaved.

How about this passage from Jude 19 :

"These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit."

They do not have the Spirit. In other words, they are without the Spirit, as is the case in 1 Cor. 2:14.

Does DHK wish to declare the folks in Jude 19 Christians? He'd have to, in order to be consistent with his mangling of a similar text of 1 Cor. 2:14.

There is no possible way an honest exegete of the Word of God can claim that the person described in 1 Cor. 2:14 (or Jude 19)is regenerate.

DHK: Quit your contortions and admit you have been proven wrong.

 

It is you who has a contextual issue. What did Paul say to the very same believers in chapter three:

So we have Paul himself telling spiritual people that he could not speak to them as spiritual people.

Why is that? If they are spiritual and your interpretation is correct then why could they not be spoken to as spiritual people?

And if they could not be sopken to as spiritual people how then did Paul speak to them?

What kind of people did Paul speak to these believers as?

The answer is in verse three:

Paul is saying that these are people who are feeding their flesh in stead of their spirits with the things of God even though they are believers.


If you are going to be smug and demand someone admit they are wrong. You need to first be right yourself.

 

RM: You quote the entirety of my post 89, yet do not deal with it head on.

You also wish to handle the Word of God in a deceitful manner.

Without the Spirit --means ...without the Spirit. Hence, unsaved.

One who regards the message of the cross --the things of God as foolishness is perishing --lost --unsaved. Bible basics here.

This person cannot understand the things of God. because the things of God can only be revealed to those who have the Spirit of God residing within them. There cannot be any discernment without the dwelling of the Spirit.

Have you made the connection that 1 Cor.2:14 has with 1 Cor. 1:18? If not, then study and work it out for yourself before you ever preach on the opening chapters of 1 Corinthians.

 

You tried to establish a context using those two verse without also using chapter three. That created your error. I dealt with the entirety of your post by setting up the context of just who Paul was talking too. Paul called those believers "of the flesh". Do you get that? Paul said the believers were not spiritual but of the flesh.

You cannot divorce 1:18 and 2;14 from 3:1-3/ When you do you get the error you have made.

Now, Quit your contortions and admit you have been proven wrong.

 

There are some simple basics of hermeneutics that are not being followed.

We read the following in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13:

The prepositional phrase "Now we" sets context. Paul and his audience (the Corinthian church) are the subject. He goes on to talk about they have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God. But in verse 14 Paul changes the subject from "we" to "a natural man":

The natural man is not the same as the "Now we" in verse 12. The natural man (fleshly, worldly) is not a Christian. He cannot accept the things of the Spirit of God. They are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them. Why? Because the are spiritually appraised, and he does not have the Spirit. "If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him" (Rom. 8:9).

Once again Paul does a shift in verse 15 from the natural man to "he who is spiritual" (i.e. a believer).

In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 Paul is not saying that the Corinthians are part and parcel with the natural man in 2:14. He says, "but as to infants in Christ" (1 Cor 3:1). He indicts their stunted growth in Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:3 is and indictment of their behavior. He is not saying that they are natural men by category (although some in their midst undoubtedly were). It is their behavior that is suspect; fleshly.

 

The above was posted yesterday. (Number 70). But so far nobody has taken the time to support or refute it. Frankly it is too biblical to refute and it makes too much sense.

 

1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh........


What Paul is saying here is that Christians can be just like the lost. They can be in a position to not be able to receive what God has for them because of their focus.

Paul says the Greeks struggle with the gospel because they seek worldly wisdom and the Jews struggle with the gospel because they seek signs. The problem Paul communicates is that their focus and hearts are set on things other than God. This was true of both the lost and the Corinthians.

Both the natural man and those "in the flesh" struggle with the things of God because of their focus, because of their hearts. Not because of some innate inability. To impose that context on this passage is eisegetical.. Both the lost and the church have the exact same problem and the church should not because they know better.

 

Why is this assumption always made about verse 14? Who says they don't have the Spirit? That is just an assumption. In a much looser translation of this verse; in fact a paraphrase called "God's Word," it reads this way:

1Co 2:14 A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the teachings of God's Spirit. He thinks they're nonsense. He can't understand them because a person must be spiritual to evaluate them.
--IOW, a person must be spiritual to understand the deep things of God. There are many Christians that are not spiritual. They are "of the flesh," carnal, worldly... This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish (Jam.3:15);For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, (1Co 3:3).
--These are descriptive of Christians both in James and in chapter 3 of this epistle. Paul is not describing an unsaved person but a carnal believer who, for the reason of his carnality, cannot understand the "deep truths of the Word of God." He is "spiritually judged." Or, unable to examine the Word in a spiritual manner.

It is a contrast between the spiritual believer and the carnal believer at Corinth. The unsaved never entered the picture and therefore is out of context.

And that is the meaning of "the natural man" in 2:14--they were not spiritual, but infants in Christ, stunted in their growth, behavior suspect, fleshly (carnal).

 

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

"Without the Spirit" is what the text says as much as it does in Jude 19. This person considers the things of God as foolishness. And 1 Cor. 1:18 tells us that those who are perishing regard the message of the cross as foolishness. This person is lost.

1 Cor. 2:14 says nothing of the deep things of God. This person cannot accept anything from the Spirit of God.

You have a loosey-goosey notion of the word spiritual. You treat it like most people of the world do --you abuse it. Listen, if someone does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within they cannot be considered spiritual.

Of course not. If one does not, cannot welcome the things that come from the Spirit of God --considers them foolishness --this person is most definitely unsaved. There is no way around it DHK.

Having not the Spirit of God would kinda' suggest that. ;-)

On the contrary, this person wants nothing to do with Christ --ridicules the things of God --cannot understand the things of God because the things of God can only be discerned by someone with the Spirit of God. This person is unregenerate.

For me to have to explain this simple, Bible 101 stuff to you repeatedly is amazing. Here you are witnessing to people (or did so in the past) teaching them the Word of God. Yet you have trouble grasping the elementary and obvious.

 

DHK

the text does...
B offered this-

Protestant-

If you understood correctly the quote from A.T. Robertson.....you would come to truth....but instead you miss the import of what is offered and substitute the wrong ideas and philosophy as Rippon has said.

here is what you yourself quoted
[

this is where they were acting.....as if they WERE natural men

unsaved kata sarka.....under the dominion of the flesh
saved kata pneuma......under the dominion of the Spirit

the different word Paul used was because he spoke of man in contrast to God's holy law.....we are undone....mere flesh...like in Isa6.
He as a man....is flesh......However as a Christian kata pneuma he delights in the law of God

chap 2-3...is dealing in one specific sin......sectarianism......in this one sin they were acting as if they were natural, unsaved ,men.
Like a fish out of water...they were sinning as if they were not in truth Spiritual
pneumatikoi,

He is not saying that the incest in chapter 5 was a Christian.....that carnal person was to be put out as a cancer.

what you teach on this is horrible.

We are in a body of flesh.....but a real Christian is no longer bound or under the dominion of the flesh.

no we are not to live AS IF we were unsaved.

AGAIN.....YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN QUOTE...watch how and why you go wrong

All Christians are spiritual.....kata pneuma.....or they ARE NOT IN Christ.

Wrong again....Wrong 100%

If you are concerned that sometimes Christians;

fail to obey all lawful commands
fail to actively mortify the deeds of the body, the motions of sin
fail to act in love
fail to walk as Children of light
fail to live as mature
fail to do the 30 one another responsibilities......

that is a complete other subject.....valid to be discussed. What you are saying here however is a complete unbiblical denial of the unseen work of the Spirit in regeneration and conversion of every Christian.

not one....wrong again.

same error different verse...James speaks of the attitude.

here is your repeated error

you here put your philosophy over the revealed word:wavey:

You will never come to truth here with your wrong thought covering the text like a stain.