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John:6:38-39
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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Here is the verse:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It says nothing of a lost man.
1. It describes a "natural man". From Strong's
ψυχικός, psuchikos, psoo-khee-kos'
From G5590; sensitive that is, animate (in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446, which is the lower or bestial nature): - natural, sensual.
The above definition does no eliminate Christians. I can go through the posts of different individuals (especially banned ones) and point to posts that are very carnal and sensual by believers. They were not written by spiritual Christians. Every Christian at times acts out of their carnal nature!
The above does not say that an individual is either lost or does not have the Spirit of God.
2. He does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.
This does not say ALL the things of the Spirit of God. Context dictates that he cannot receive the "deep truths of the Spirit of God."
1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
--This has been the context all the way through. They are immature, carnal believers, can only take milk and not the meat of the Word, unable to understand the "deep truths of the things of god." That is the context.
It falls under our doctrine of "Illumination". There is no indication that this refers to an unsaved person.
"They are foolishness unto him"
The deep truths of God" are foolishness to a carnal believer. Trying to understand the book of Revelation to a person who barely understands the gospel and the need to be baptized is foolishness. He usually comes up with all kinds of wild ideas. This is just an example. It does not mean that he is unsaved, just a babe in Christ, immature, whose mind is on other matters most of the time. Not every believer is "spiritual;" they all don't grow at the same time. They all don't give up their cigarettes the first day that they are saved, so to speak. But some do.
"Neither can he know them" Know what?? Know the deep truths of God of course! Only the Spirit can guide him into that, and the Spirit uses the Word of God which this new believer has been avoiding. He is still a babe in Christ, a carnal one.
Why? "Because they are spiritually discerned" or judged, examined.
They are not able to judge spiritual things because of their immaturity.
There is nothing in this verse that says anyone is void of the Holy Spirit. Why would you suppose there is. Only Calvinism reads that meaning into this verse.
Start at the beginning of the chapter and read slowly through it. That is what Paul is speaking about--comprehension of the deeper truths of the Word--illumination. If you are fixated on just this one verse of course you won't get it.
Talk about "loose goosey notions!!
Look! I had many spiritual teachers when I went to Bible college.
I also had some carnal room-mates, at times. But they were still believers.
I am sorry that you can't see that difference.
The one who is spiritual, not only has the Holy Spirit, but also is separated from the world, and is walking in a spiritual manner so that others can see his spirituality, that is, they know that he is a believer.
He knows he does not have "the right" to go to the bars, etc. or to live as the world lives. He is spiritual. A spiritual man will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit in his life.
There are many believers that do not welcome the discipline that it takes for one to be spiritual. It is not easy for everyone to read their bible regularly, pray regularly, witness on a regular basis, be in constant fellowship with other believers, show the fruit of the Spirit as opposed to the works of the flesh on a constant basis, etc. This is what being spiritual is all about--exemplifying Christ in you.
Who said they wanted nothing to do with Christ? You are reading more into the verse than is there. It says nothing about an unregenerate person but one who hasn't grown in Christ. Your presuppositions get in your way of properly interpreting this verse and taking it out of the context it is in.
You fail to read the scripture before and after. Remember there were no chapter divisions when it was written.
Perhaps you need Bible 101. I don't need your condescension.
You need Bible comprehension. Stop reading into the verse that which is not there.
1Co 2:14 :
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, an cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
It describes a "natural man".
A natural person is earthly, unspiritual,demonic (James 3:15)
That is evidence that that person is not a believer and falls under condemnation. The very same kind of person is spoken of in 1 Cor. 1:18 :
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
The person in 1 Cor. 2:14 is perishing, lost, unsaved. There is no getting around that fact.
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, an cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
It doesn't use the term "lost" but surely one "without the Spirit" is indeed lost.
It describes a "natural man".
A natural person is earthly, unspiritual,demonic (James 3:15)
You are being deliberately blind. "Without the Spirit" is what it says, and that means lost. They are only two categories DHK< the lost and the saved. Of course, some of the formerly lost will become saved. But the person described in 1 Cor. 2:14 is certainly unsaved --perishing because they regard the things of God as foolishness (see 1 Cor.1:18).
How could it be otherwise since there is no indwelling of the Spirit.
You are obtuse. There is no mere indication --it's blatantly obvious the person is unsaved.
Unsaved is the condition of the one described in 1 Cor. 2:14.
Can't be a babe without being born again --without the Holy Spirit.
Again, you misuse the word. One with the Spirit is spiritual.
It's not possible for that individual to know the things of God because because the Spirit is not in residence.
The person without the Spirit...
...does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness...
That is evidence that that person is not a believer and falls under condemnation. The very same kind of person is spoken of in 1 Cor. 1:18 :
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
The person in 1 Cor. 2:14 is perishing, lost, unsaved. There is no getting around that fact.
As I have demonstrated --you are flatly wrong DHK. One who doesn't have the Spirit doesn't have Christ. This is no matter of growth. This person hasn't even been born from above in the first place.
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You have made up your own translation. It says "the natural man."
I have not come across any translation that says "the person without the Spirit." You are just making things up. You allow your bias to get in the way and support your Calvinistic theories.
:thumbs::wavey::thumbs::applause:
You have lied twice about this in the same post. I have been quoting the NIV.
From 1 Cor. 2:14 : The person without the Spirit...
From the very next verse: The person with the Spirit...
There are two categories of people in both of the those verses though they are side-by-side. From verse 14 --unsaved. From verse 15 --saved.
In a number of translations it is rendered that way. But that particular reading does not negate all that I have posted on the subject in this thread.
What you need to do is humble yourself and admit that you have been very wrong about this issue. It is not a small matter. If you teach others yet have such a huge hole in your doctrine you need to take a backseat and study. Your blindness is a liability.
You have quoted some men who differ with you on this. And apparently you didn't even notice that they had the same view that I hold.There are many more teachers of God's Word that recognize that the person in 1 Cor. 2:14 is unregenerate. See for yourself.
You don't have a clue what you are talking about and are being about as dishonest as any person can be about the scripture here.
This is very elementary so that anyone can see it:
1 Corinthians 2:14 ψυχικος δε ανθρωπος ου δεχεται τα του πνευματος του θεου μωρια γαρ αυτω εστιν και ου δυναται γνωναι οτι πνευματικως ανακρινεται
Those three bolded words simply say: "But (the) natural man". There are only three words there. There is no way those three words could possibly say: "the person without the Spirit," as you allege." Those words are just not there, not even found in the text.
You are adding to the text, making up the text, just plain making things up. It is all lies on your part. I may not be a Greek scholar, but I can see deception very clearly when I look at the Greek.
The two kinds of people are spiritual Christians and unspiritual Christians or carnal Christians as Paul goes on to describe in chapter 3.
He addresses them as:
brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
--They are brethren--believers.
They are CARNAL.
They are in Christ
They are CARNAL CHRISTIANS! whether you like the term or not.
The comparison is between spiritual Christians and unspiritual Christians normally called "carnal Christians."
I am not the one in that position.
You are not only wrong in your position. You deliberately lied and were dishonest about the translation.
He is not allowed to see it.:wavey::wavey::wavey:
You are out of your mind. I said nothing false. I said that I have been quoting from the NIV all along. There is nothing dishonest about it whatsoever.
Shaking my head and wondering where your head is. I have been quoting from the NIV. I have not been hiding that. For you to accuse me of lying about it proves that you have a problem with the truth.
You can't tell the difference between a non-Christian (1 Cor. 2:14) and a saved person (1 Cor. 2:15). Until you get things straight you will be in error and spreading error.
Psychikos GK6035 S5591: per Kohlenberger Dictionary means "pertaining to the natural state: physical, unspiritual, without the Spirit " That is the word the ESV translates as Natural. However, HCSB says "unbeliever" and NIV renders it "without the Spirit".
Thank you for that McCree.
The start of the verse in the 1984 NIV : The man without the Spirit...
The start of the verse in the TNIV and 2011 NIV : The person without the Spirit...
1 Corinthians 2:14 ψυχικος δε ανθρωπος ου δεχεται τα του πνευματος του θεου μωρια γαρ αυτω εστιν και ου δυναται γνωναι οτι πνευματικως ανακρινεται
There is no "non-Christian" described in the above verse. If there is, show me. It doesn't exist.
No, I didn't know you were translating from the NIV; I don't recall you saying so. I have many translations on my computer (more than a dozen), but that is not one of them.
There is no reason, as I described above, to interpret the verse as an unsaved person. Demonstrate it through the exact words being used, not a paraphrase or anything similar.
You are not answering my post. You are focusing on one verse and butchering it along the way. You keep ignoring the larger context.
The contrast is between spiritual Christians and carnal Christians.
As I have already stated:
The two kinds of people are spiritual Christians and unspiritual Christians or carnal Christians as Paul goes on to describe in chapter 3.
He addresses them as:
brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
--They are brethren--believers.
They are CARNAL.
They are in Christ
They are CARNAL CHRISTIANS! whether you like the term or not.
The comparison is between spiritual Christians and unspiritual Christians normally called "carnal Christians."
convicted1
Guest
Yes lost people can struggle to understand the things of God 1 Cor 2:14
Yes saved people can struggle to understand the things of God 1Cor 3:3
In both cases it is for the same reason. They are focused on worldly things and not walking in the spirit.
There is not total inability in 1 Cor 2:14. That is reading calvinism into scripture where it does not exist.
Yes saved people can struggle to understand the things of God 1Cor 3:3
In both cases it is for the same reason. They are focused on worldly things and not walking in the spirit.
There is not total inability in 1 Cor 2:14. That is reading calvinism into scripture where it does not exist.
Quite true.
I have shown you what, about a dozen or so posts by now?
So after falsely accusing me of making up my own translation you can be a Christian (1 Cor. 2:15) and apologize to me.
And you need to re-read my posts wherein I specified over, and over and over again why that person is indeed an unsaved individual.
The words "spiritual Christians" is a redundancy as much as born again Christians.
As I have explained to you --there are two categories of people --only two --saved and unsaved.
As I have been engaging you on this topic I have also been listening to Sermonaudio.com.
Check out three sermons that deal with 1 Corinthians 2:14. Paul Walker, Dave E. Thompson and Robert Haling are the preachers. I had never heard of them before. They all --with one voice say the same as I have been telling you all along --the person in 1 Cor. 2:14 is lost. That individual does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within. It's not a matter of the person living their Christian life on a lower plane than other Christians. This person has never been born again. They are in the flesh, natural, earthly. As soon as you recognize this the better off you'll be. Perhaps it can be a starting point for you to see how you have erred in your interpretation of other key portions of Scripture.
There is no "struggle" in evidence in that passage. People in that condition mock the things of God and consider them foolishness.
They do not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God because they cannot understand them. Understanding can only take place when they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The things from the Spirit of God can be discerned only through the Spirit.
They cannot. They are not able. Those in the flesh cannot please God. They are hostile toward God. They are spiritually blind. Many other signs of the inability of people apart from God's intervention are found in God's Word supporting the doctrine of the pervasive corruption and inability of man.
I have not falsely accused you, and I don't need to apologize to you.
You avoid the truth and a truthful answer:
1 Corinthians 2:14 ψυχικος δε ανθρωπος ου δεχεται τα του πνευματος του θεου μωρια γαρ αυτω εστιν και ου δυναται γνωναι οτι πνευματικως ανακρινεται
There is no "non-Christian" described in the above verse. If there is, show me. It doesn't exist.
Verse 15:
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1 Corinthians 2:15 ο δε πνευματικος ανακρινει μεν παντα αυτος δε υπ ουδενος ανακρινεται
From Strong's
πνευματικος pneumatikos pnyoo-mat-ik-os'
from 4151; non-carnal, i.e. (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious:—spiritual. Compare 5591.
It has a variety of meanings, the primary one is simply non-carnal
The contrast is between the carnal and non-carnal Christian. This much has now become very obvious.
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