John:6:38-39

[DHK]

What about Cornelious , he "feared" God scripture tells us in Acts 10:2 before he heard the gospel preached by Peter. Unregenerated men do not fear God as Romans 3:18 tells us, "18 There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Many people fear God. You are misinterpreting that verse. It describes in general terms the depravity of man's heart, the depths of depravity to which it can sink. For example:

Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
--How much blood did you shed before you were saved?

It is a general statement of the depths of the wickedness of the human heart and what it is capable of doing. They are not absolutes for every person. They are general statements, general descriptions.

Simply because it says "Cornelius feared God," does not mean he feared Christ, the God of the Bible. He had not even heard of him, or if he had it was in a way of rejection and hatred that was passed on from the Jews.
He feared the "Judaic God" which now had become a false God, for it was now a false religion, a religion that rejected the Messiah.

Cornelius was not regenerated.

 

[convicted1]

How about just accepting the plain message intended here that ONLY those whom the father gave to jesus get saved, and once saved, they are eternally secured by power of God?

That's above Van's pay grade, I'm afraid. Solid post. :thumbsup:

 

[McCree79]

What about Cornelious , he "feared" God scripture tells us in Acts 10:2 before he heard the gospel preached by Peter. Unregenerated men do not fear God as Romans 3:18 tells us, "18 There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Also add, "God fearer" is what non circumcised, non Jewish believers were called. That is what Luke meant by "feared God".

 

[McCree79]

Many people fear God. You are misinterpreting that verse. It describes in general terms the depravity of man's heart, the depths of depravity to which it can sink. For example:

Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
--How much blood did you shed before you were saved?

It is a general statement of the depths of the wickedness of the human heart and what it is capable of doing. They are not absolutes for every person. They are general statements, general descriptions.

Simply because it says "Cornelius feared God," does not mean he feared Christ, the God of the Bible. He had not even heard of him, or if he had it was in a way of rejection and hatred that was passed on from the Jews.
He feared the "Judaic God" which now had become a false God, for it was now a false religion, a religion that rejected the Messiah.

Cornelius was not regenerated.

Julius Scott provides the more or less standard definition of a God-Fearer: “an unofficial class of Gentiles who stopped short of becoming full proselytes but were permitted limited participation in Jewish worship”

The word is used in Second Temple period literature to describe a godly man who is reverent to the God of Israel.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Many people fear God. You are misinterpreting that verse. It describes in general terms the depravity of man's heart, the depths of depravity to which it can sink. For example:

Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
--How much blood did you shed before you were saved?

Simply because it says "Cornelius feared God," does not mean he feared Christ, the God of the Bible. .

Yes, many people fear God, they are called believers! "14 The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant" (Psalm 25:14) and Peter actually states in the same chapter that discusses Cornelius " 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35). What scripture can you point to that shows an unregenerate can fear God?

Unbelievers do not "fear God", thus it states is Psalm 36:1, "36 The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes."

 

[DHK]

Julius Scott provides the more or less standard definition of a God-Fearer: “an unofficial class of Gentiles who stopped short of becoming full proselytes but were permitted limited participation in Jewish worship”

The word is used in Second Temple period literature to describe a godly man who is reverent to the God of Israel.

Yes, I agree with that definition.
So he was "godly" by Jewish standards, not Christian standards. He had not heard the gospel.
He had a limited knowledge of Jehovah for he wasn't a full proselyte.
Now what knowledge he may have had about "the Messiah" was tainted because the Jews had rejected Him.
Because of their rejection, even Judaism in and of itself had become a false religion. This is post-cross; post-Pentecost. One must remember those facts when considering this event.

Without the gospel there can be no regeneration.

 

[DHK]

Yes, many people fear God, they are called believers! "14 The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant" (Psalm 25:14) and Peter actually states in the same chapter that discusses Cornelius " 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35). What scripture can you point to that shows an unregenerate can fear God?

Unbelievers do not "fear God", thus it states is Psalm 36:1, "36 The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes."

There are many people that "fear God and are not saved." In our society today there are many Catholics that could be described as "fearing God," and yet remain as unsaved. Every verse you used was taken from an OT economy. The question becomes, "Which God do they fear?"
Mormons also "fear God," but that doesn't make them saved.

 

[McCree79]

Yes, I agree with that definition.
So he was "godly" by Jewish standards, not Christian standards. He had not heard the gospel.
He had a limited knowledge of Jehovah for he wasn't a full proselyte.
Now what knowledge he may have had about "the Messiah" was tainted because the Jews had rejected Him.
Because of their rejection, even Judaism in and of itself had become a false religion. This is post-cross; post-Pentecost. One must remember those facts when considering this event.

Without the gospel there can be no regeneration.

Would those who lived during the time Jesus, those who had what was previously accepted saving faith(before his death); would they lose salvation upon the death of Christ?

If they did lose it: Is it possible that God sent an Apostle to Cornelius to reestablish his saving faith?

If he didn't lose it: Is it possible that God sent an Apostle to Cornelius to share the truth of Jesus with his devout follower?

He was a devout follower of God. Pre-Jesus, that would have saved him. We then are left with the 2 options above.

 

[The Archangel]

It is a general statement of the depths of the wickedness of the human heart and what it is capable of doing. They are not absolutes for every person. They are general statements, general descriptions.

So, then, you would have to say that "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" is also a "general statement," "not [an] absolute for every person."

Unreal.....

The Archangel

 

[BrotherJoseph]

There are many people that "fear God and are not saved." In our society today there are many Catholics that could be described as "fearing God," and yet remain as unsaved. Every verse you used was taken from an OT economy. The question becomes, "Which God do they fear?"
Mormons also "fear God," but that doesn't make them saved.

Brother DHK,

Every verse I used was not from the Old Testament, Peter said, "35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35)

As far as Catholics are concerned, I would argue many of them are indeed saved. "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:" (1 John 5:1(a))

 

[The Archangel]

Simply because it says "Cornelius feared God," does not mean he feared Christ, the God of the Bible. He had not even heard of him, or if he had it was in a way of rejection and hatred that was passed on from the Jews.
He feared the "Judaic God" which now had become a false God, for it was now a false religion, a religion that rejected the Messiah.

Cornelius was not regenerated.

You simply have no clue what you're talking about.

What does Acts 10 say about Cornelius?

1. A devout man who feared God

2. Gave alms generously to the people

3. Prayed continually to God.
​

What is more, when Cornelius is visited by an angel in a vision, what does the angel say? "Your prayers and your alms http://www.esvbible.org/Rv8.4;Ps141.2;Dn10.12/have ascended http://www.esvbible.org/Mt26.13;Mk14.9;Ac10.31;Hb6.10/as a memorial before God..." In other words God heard Cornelius' prayers.

While Cornelius was not yet a believer in Christ, he did believe in and fear Yahweh, the God of the Bible. There simply is NO way around what Luke is meaning to convey here--that Cornelius already knew the One, True, and Living God and worshiped Him. We see God's grace in that God sent the angel (and then Peter) to bring Christ to his waiting heart.

The Archangel

 

[DHK]

You simply have no clue what you're talking about.

What does Acts 10 say about Cornelius?

1. A devout man who feared God

2. Gave alms generously to the people

3. Prayed continually to God.
​

What is more, when Cornelius is visited by an angel in a vision, what does the angel say? "Your prayers and your alms http://www.esvbible.org/Rv8.4;Ps141.2;Dn10.12/have ascended http://www.esvbible.org/Mt26.13;Mk14.9;Ac10.31;Hb6.10/as a memorial before God..." In other words God heard Cornelius' prayers.

While Cornelius was not yet a believer in Christ, he did believe in and fear Yahweh, the God of the Bible. There simply is NO way around what Luke is meaning to convey here--that Cornelius already knew the One, True, and Living God and worshiped Him. We see God's grace in that God sent the angel (and then Peter) to bring Christ to his waiting heart.

The Archangel

On the Day of Pentecost "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." (2:5)
...the multitude came together, and were confounded,...they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (2:6-8)
--There were about 100,000 devout Jews assembled together in Jerusalem.
They were all witnesses to the phenomena recorded in Acts 2:1-4, and all were amazed.
However, out of approximately 100,000 only 3,000 were regenerated and saved. Devout as they were the others were not.
Some mocked and claimed that the disciples were drunk.
Among them were the Sanhedrin, and also the very ones that put Christ to death. The record calls them "devout Jews." It has nothing to do with regeneration.

As in Acts 10, so here. Cornelius had never heard the gospel, never heard of Christ (except possibly in a derogatory manner), never heard any NT revelation, and could only grasp some OT revelation that he could hear from afar, not being "a full proselyte."

To assume that a pagan Roman centurion that had heard some OT revelation and had no NT revelation, and had never heard the gospel even once, is regenerated, is preposterous. It makes about as much sense as going to a Muslim nation and reading a portion of the OT to each Muslim and then proclaiming them saved. Remember both groups: (Muslims and Jews) are anti-Christian. The Jews were in the first century when the persecuted Christians as Saul did and when they crucified Christ, and Muslim persecute Christians today.
Easy work for a missionary isn't it? Go read a bit of the OT to a Muslim and presto, he is regenerated!! That is what you are telling me. That is the comparison. There are many "devout Muslims."

God appeared to a heathen king in a dream but that did not mean that the heathen king was saved.
Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

The man was simply religious, not saved.
It is probable that "Mother Theresa" of India was more devout and full of good works than Cornelius was, but yet was not saved in her life time.
Being religious does not save a person. Why would you stick to such a position?

 

[The Archangel]

On the Day of Pentecost "there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." (2:5)
...the multitude came together, and were confounded,...they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (2:6-8)
--There were about 100,000 devout Jews assembled together in Jerusalem.
They were all witnesses to the phenomena recorded in Acts 2:1-4, and all were amazed.
However, out of approximately 100,000 only 3,000 were regenerated and saved. Devout as they were the others were not.
Some mocked and claimed that the disciples were drunk.
Among them were the Sanhedrin, and also the very ones that put Christ to death. The record calls them "devout Jews." It has nothing to do with regeneration.

As in Acts 10, so here. Cornelius had never heard the gospel, never heard of Christ (except possibly in a derogatory manner), never heard any NT revelation, and could only grasp some OT revelation that he could hear from afar, not being "a full proselyte."

To assume that a pagan Roman centurion that had heard some OT revelation and had no NT revelation, and had never heard the gospel even once, is regenerated, is preposterous. It makes about as much sense as going to a Muslim nation and reading a portion of the OT to each Muslim and then proclaiming them saved. Remember both groups: (Muslims and Jews) are anti-Christian. The Jews were in the first century when the persecuted Christians as Saul did and when they crucified Christ, and Muslim persecute Christians today.
Easy work for a missionary isn't it? Go read a bit of the OT to a Muslim and presto, he is regenerated!! That is what you are telling me. That is the comparison. There are many "devout Muslims."

God appeared to a heathen king in a dream but that did not mean that the heathen king was saved.
Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

The man was simply religious, not saved.
It is probable that "Mother Theresa" of India was more devout and full of good works than Cornelius was, but yet was not saved in her life time.
Being religious does not save a person. Why would you stick to such a position?

Again, you seem to be missing this:

What does Acts 10 say about Cornelius?

1. A devout man who feared God

2. Gave alms generously to the people

3. Prayed continually to God.
​

Deal with that...

The Archangel

 

[DHK]

Again, you seem to be missing this:

What does Acts 10 say about Cornelius?

1. A devout man who feared God

2. Gave alms generously to the people

3. Prayed continually to God.
​

Deal with that...

The Archangel

A religious man that gives and prays--a typical Catholic.
Salvation by works. He didn't know Christ; had never heard of him (that we know of), had never heard the gospel. Deal with that!

 

[The Archangel]

A religious man that gives and prays--a typical Catholic.
Salvation by works. He didn't know Christ; had never heard of him (that we know of), had never heard the gospel. Deal with that!

Why, then, did the angel come? Why did the angel say that his prayers had been heard?

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

Why, then, did the angel come? Why did the angel say that his prayers had been heard?

The Archangel

Would he be a type of first fruits among the gentiles, as one that God was electing and calling to get saved, by having him able to hear about Jesus thru Apostle peter then?

that he was a sinner who had known about the god of isreal, and held to Him being the real God, as compared to the ones of Rome, but still needed to know the gospel to get saved?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

A religious man that gives and prays--a typical Catholic.
Salvation by works. He didn't know Christ; had never heard of him (that we know of), had never heard the gospel. Deal with that!

Brother DHK,

You seem to dismiss Catholics as mostly being unsaved, why?

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

You seem to dismiss Catholics as mostly being unsaved, why?

I was a Catholic for 20 years and never heard the gospel once.
The Catholic church does not preach the gospel. It is a false religion based on works. Their Catechism says that baptism = born again. IOW baptismal regeneration.

 

[Yeshua1]

Brother DHK,

You seem to dismiss Catholics as mostly being unsaved, why?

Their church teaches another/false Gospel message!

 

[DHK]

Why, then, did the angel come? Why did the angel say that his prayers had been heard?

The Archangel

This is the problem for the Calvinist and the rut they can't get out of.
God is able to answer the prayer of an unsaved person.
An unsaved person is able to seek God, as God commands him.
Cornelius was seeking God and God answered his prayers, even though he was unsaved. But since the Calvinist can't accept that he must twist scripture to make it say something it doesn't say.