Featured Calvinism's conumdrum, Is God the Author of sin?

As Brother kyredneck says from time-to-time....'zactly!! :thumbsup:

They freely chose to rebel against God and His people. No one gave them a prodding to do so, no one twisted their arms, no one put a gun to their head and made them do what they did....they acted freely in accordance to their will...to rebel against God and His people... but they did so in accord with God's will...

au contraire mon ami. They freely acted in accordance to God's will. These are prime examples of God's sovereignity and man's responsibility working to accomplish His will. Just like Jesus' crucifixion...God's sovereignity and man's responsibilty to His will at work....

Don't disagree with you here. Yet, ~120 years later that city was destroyed. Jonah had no other choice than to go there. He chose to go towards Tarshish and God sent a whale to swallow him. After three days, he bent his will to God's will....

 

All right. 120 years is quite a few generations. Deal with the time when Jonah went. The fact is: "And they repented at the preaching of Jonah."
That is not the way Total "Inability" works, is it? They were ABLE to repent.
Jonah preached and they had the ability to repent.
The same was true in Acts 17.
Paul preached a message of repentance. Many Athenians believed and were saved. They chose Christ.

 

Why did you not address what I posted about Jezebel and Goliath?

Man doesn't have the ability to repent outside the regenerating power of the Spirit being at work in their lives.....not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance...Rom. 2:4b....For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of....2 Cor. 7:10a.....if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.....2 Tim. 2:25b...all of these show that it is God who first works within a person to do that which they can not do on their own.


Now onto Acts 17:30....And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent....now, why do some repent and others don't, if all have the ability to do so? Are those who repent smarter? Are they of a contrite and humble spirit? Are they better listeners? Look, God commanded Israel, all of Israel to keep the Law. He knew they could not and would not, yet held them to it and killed them when they did not obey the Law. It was His way of showing those who were His...the not all of Israel is Israel....Rom. 9:6b....that they could not do it and looked to the One who could. If man could repent of his own accord, if he could believe, have faith within himself, then there would be no need of God doing anything for him...they can do it theirself, so why would they need Him to do it for him?

 

Did God pre-program Lucifer to fall? Predestine Lucifer to fall?

Lucifer had no choice?

Adam had no choice?

Eve had no choice?

Calvinism argues that the John 6 "drawing" of man supernaturally by God Himself - enables all the "choice" that depravity disables.

"I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto Me" John 12:32.

End of Calvinism.

 

Somehow Calvinism will continue to flourish despite your silly pronouncements Bob.

 

That viewpoint would indeed be held by Hyper calvinists, but BOTH the Infra and Supra positions regarding the Decrees of God would reject ANY notion that God was the author of sin and evil!

And IF we want to say that the logical end point of a Calvinist would be that view, would we not also state that the logical end of Armianism would be christian universalism?

I deny either "logical end point" are true!

 

For as in Adam all die, 1 Cor 15:22 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

I find it amazing that for 5000 plus years and billions of men, that not one has chosen to not sin.

Well except for one and even he died, having been made sin for us and giving his life a ransom.

Did man make himself carnal, selling himself, to him who had the power of death, that is the devil, or was he created carnal as flesh and blood, sold under sin, for the purpose of, destruction of death and the devil?

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26

Was Adam from the moment he was created going to sin and had he not have sinned would he have been the Christ?


I think the better question is. Did God create an Adversary in creating Lucifer, Son to the Morning Star, an eternal being, of did Lucifer become the Adversary that then needed to be dwelt with?

 

My much bigger concern is not with calvinists or arminians, but with groups such as the SDA and Church of Rome!

 

I thought I did. They chose to do evil. The why is irrelevant. Rather, why did they choose to do that particular evil. As I said, they had other options. Neither one of them were forced to go up against God's people. In fact, God could have used other means if He so desired. You seem to be blaming their sin on God, once again making God the author of sin. Perhaps if they stayed home and took care of their families they would not have sinned against God in this way.

This is the Calvinistic MO, even if it involves taking Scripture out of context to try and prove it. Obviously Paul, in Acts 17 proved you wrong, as did Jonah.

Romans chapter two is speaking about Jews.
He starts off saying this:
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
--The "O man" is an imaginary Jew in which he carries on a conversation. The Jews were notorious for judging others in comparison to themselves. They would commit idolatry, for example and then accuse the other nations of being idolatrous nations. That was Paul's point. Statement after statement he condemns the Jew in this chapter and shows that their standing before God lies on shaky ground.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
--The Jew will not escape the judgment of God simply because he is a Jew.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
What does he despise? It is the Jew that has inherited the Word of God, the promises of God, the covenants of God, etc. Through them the Messiah came. Through that goodnes (the goodness of God in Christ) they are lead to repentance. They are still in need of repentance. Who needs to repent? The Jews or God? The answer is obvious. God is not going to repent for them.

Scripture taken out of context.
No ungodly person has "godly sorrow." That should be obvious.
The context is in a Christian context, possibly speaking of the one who had sinned in 1Cor.5 committing incest. Now having repenting of that sin, with Godly sorrow he should be taken back into the assembly. He was already a brother in Christ. The right steps to repentance had been taken. It was the church that had prayed and mourned for him with godly sorrow. That godly sorrow led to his repentance.
Notice carefully:
2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
--The "ye" is plural. It is addressed to the believers in Corinth. It is not addressed to unbelievers. It has nothing to do with salvation. Why do Calvinists take scripture out of context as proof texts to use against some point that cannot be proven in Scripture?

They must repent on their own. This only shows that it is the Scripture that is the means of faith.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--Faith and repentance go hand in hand. One cannot have repentance without faith. They both work together.

You haven't answered the question. They don't need him to do it for them.
That is what you are guilty of believing. They have faith, and therefore some believe and some don't. They have free will given to them by God in the providence of God. If you were to go door to door and evangelize using that method. Why would some feel antagonized and ready to slam the door, and some be ready to listen and invite you in?

This is the question you are asking. God knows the heart. Each heart is different. Each one responds differently. And it is their choice whether to shut the door to the gospel or to open it. You would know that if you spent any amount of time in evangelism.
It is not up to God. It is up to the individual to receive or reject Christ.
On that basis they will either go to heaven or hell.

To say that some are better listeners or some other excuse is just a ridiculous red herring trying to side-track the real issue of the responsibility that man has to give an account of himself before God. And someday he will. God will not account for man. Man will give an account for himself before the Great Judge as to why he did not trust Christ.

 

Yeshua1 - c'mon man, I like you and all, but proofread, buddy. Proofread. :thumbsup: :type:

 

I have corrected....

 

So noted. :thumbsup: Just looking out for you, bud. Didn't want you to get banned or get in trouble because of a typo. I know I fat-finger enough when I type...

 

I appreciate that....

 

Romans 2:1,3,4 are not just directed toward Jews. It applies to everyone just as much as Romans 9:20 which is addressed to all.

 

Okay.

Hmm...2 Cor. was indeed addressing believers. But Paul is explaining things as to how they were led to Christ as unbelievers.

Why do you continually make false charges against Calvinists?

Look at the very next verse:

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to SALVATION and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Yes they do. God gives both. People cannot generate faith and repentance on their own.

 

They chose in accord with their nature. You're saying the Jews could have chosen NOT to crucify Jesus?

Wrong...but I digress...

The whole book of Romans was written to the church @ Rome. They were gentiles. Sure, there were Jews in that church that had came out of Judaism, but the church was a gentile church, with Paul an disciple to the Gentiles. If Paul was referring to Jews, then Gentiles would have an excuse if they judged others. We all, the believers, are now Jews inwardly as Paul wrote in the last two verses in chapter 2.......For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Jew nor Gentile will escape God's judgement....

The goodness of God leads His sheep to repentance(Rom. 2:4)....a GODLY sorrow leads His sheep to repentance...2 Cor. 7:10....

Bro. Rippon adequately addressed this...he was explaing how God wrought repentance within them...

And both are gifts from God...

Where does faith come from? I know you state Rom. 10:17...but once they hear the word preached, does faith come the preacher's preaching or the Spirit moving within the preached word? Faith comes BY hearing...that shows an external, and not internal, Source at work. Faith is not internal, innate, inherent within mankind...it comes from God...

This is just plain sickening...pitiful train of thought....and you're a pastor....sick flock you have if they eat what you feed them...

No...you repeatedly say faith comes by hearing...why do some who hear not believe? I guess they didn't have their hearing-aids turned on....

 

It was prophesied that he would die by the hand of the Jews. But at an individual level, not a single one of them were forced to take part in that crucifixion. Many of them didn't. Why did some crucify him and some only watch, or perhaps even stay home and refuse to watch such a terrible mockery. Some partook of the crime and some did not. Why?

The last verse or two, which you quoted are simply transitional verses into chapter three.
In chapter one Paul addresses or speaks of the sinful state of the Gentile.
In chapter two he describes the sinful state of the Jew.
In chapter three he describes the sinful state of both Jew and Gentile together.
Again in chapter two:
Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
And in chapter three:
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

That is true. But chapter two is speaking of Jews--disobedient ones.

The goodness of God, spoken of in Romans 2, is the goodness of God in Christ manifested to unsaved and disobedient Jews who rejected Christ. If they choose it will lead them to repentance.

Godly sorrow (2Cor.7:10) is only given to Godly sheep. The repentance spoken of is the repentance of a Christian (sheep), of a specific sin, a sin committed after one has already come to Christ. It has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation. That is the context in chapter 7 of 2Corinthians

But he ignores the obvious context. He is not speaking of spiritual salvation. He is not speaking of their salvation at all. Look at the first few verses:
2Co 7:2-4 (ESV)
(2) Make room in your hearts for us. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one.
(3) I do not say this to condemn you, for I said before that you are in our hearts, to die together and to live together.
(4) I am acting with great boldness toward you; I have great pride in you; I am filled with comfort. In all our affliction, I am overflowing with joy.
--He had previously written a harsh letter. Now he wants reconciliation from them. He wants to come to comfort them, and them to be comforted. They repented of their wrong doing mentioned in his first letter. It was a harsh letter which dealt with things like incest. They acted appropriately with godly sorrow. Sorrow that lead to repentance. The salvation was no doubt the physical salvation of the individual who had committed incest and was consequently delivered "such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1Cor.5:4).
"The destruction of the flesh" refers to death if he had not repented.

And God does not give such gifts to the unregenerate, and there is no Biblical passage which demonstrates that.

Jesus clearly taught that faith is innate. But you deny that it is. Why do you deny that faith is innate?
Jesus said that one must have faith as a child. Obviously then faith is innate, even as a child innately has faith in his or her parents.
Jesus healed all that came to him. What did he say to them?
"Thy faith has made you whole." Where did their faith come from?
It was innate. Where else would it come from? You tell me.

Calvin teaches that God elects some to heaven and reprobates the rest to hell with no chance ever of going to heaven whether or not they want to believe the gospel. They are reprobated to hell period. Horrible theology!
Now you say concerning what I said here:

You have called the above sickening.
Yet the Bible teaches: "whosoever will may come." And it teaches that over and over again, not the tenets of TULIP.

The gospel was preached. Some believed and some didn't.
On the Day of Pentecost: 3,000 believed. About 97,000 didn't.
The reason: Some hearts are more willing to believe than others.
Christ does not force anyone to believe.
Jesus continually pleads with all:
Come unto me and I will give you rest.
It is up to the individual to make the choice.

 

You and I are done. I will no longer debate you. You have shown repeatedly the inability to rightly divide the word of truth. You are a poisoned well that your flock drinks from. You are one that I am afraid of. I am afraid of the damage you're inflicting upon your flock.

It's not up to God? Then it's up to man. Yeah. We're done buddy. I wished they'd take you 'moderator' title from you so I could put you on 'ick-nore'. But either way, we're done....

 

:applause: Yep everyone ignores Isaiah 45:7.

 

In my limited knowledge I don't understand it but just posted what it says!... Brother Glen