Calvinism's conumdrum, Is God the Author of sin?

[Yeshua1]

Do you trust Luther?
In light of what Luther wrote in his own Catechism how is it you can trust what he wrote in "Bondage of the Will"?

In his Small Catechism Luther states that it is through the sacraments that "God offers, gives, and seal unto us the forgiveness of sins which Christ has earned for us."

The Catechism ask the question:
What does Baptism give or profit.
The Catechism declares: "It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare."

Knowing now what Luther believes, how much do you trust "The Bondage of the Will"?

His take on the human syae as sinners was correct, but it is regretable that he was not able to fully free himself from the trappings of Rome, as in his views on the "sacraments"

 

[robustheologian]

Remember though the Calvinist view on the human will is that summed up rather nicely by Dr Luther in his classic work the Bondage of the human Will, and not as non cals tend to see us as still having full libertine version of freewill!

O come now. The minute I suggest that man has a human free will within the bounds of God's sovereignty I am completely shut down almost to the point of being a heretic (in the eyes of some of the Calvinists here).
Yet that is the position that you are suggesting that you take.

I have not denied anyone's salvation.
I merely suggest what happens when a person believes all five points of Calvinism--takes the whole package, (as some insist that to be called a Calvinist you must do), and then follow it through to its logical conclusions.
If such is done, then what do you end up believing?

Like Yeshua1 has stated Cals don't hold a libertarian view of free will (that would contradict Calvinism) but the Bible teaches that our will is within God's will.

Second, one should not take the 5 points of Calvinism to come to a conclusion. Such people might end up with a warped view of God's sovereignty in relation to man. As Dr. John Frame once said, the 5 points of Calvinism must be used only as an auxiliary to the Bible...not the other way around.

 

[Yeshua1]

Like Yeshua1 has stated Cals don't hold a libertarian view of free will (that would contradict Calvinism) but the Bible teaches that our will is within God's will.

Second, one should not take the 5 points of Calvinism to come to a conclusion. Such people might end up with a warped view of God's sovereignty in relation to man. As Dr. John Frame once said, the 5 points of Calvinism must be used only as an auxiliary to the Bible...not the other way around.

Agreed, as the big mistake is that some do not see that calvinism is a system that is trying to piece and put together what the entire Bible teaches on salvation, and that it is rooted in the belief that the fall destroyed us being able to 'come to Christ" of our own "free will

 

[Inspector Javert]

And think that Dr Sproul would not be advocating God caused Adam to sin, as that quote might be suggesting

Wrong "Sproul" genius.

That would be just the same as claiming Robb bell spoke for the non cal position, wouldn't it?

No.

Not even close.

 

[DHK]

Like Yeshua1 has stated Cals don't hold a libertarian view of free will (that would contradict Calvinism) but the Bible teaches that our will is within God's will.

Second, one should not take the 5 points of Calvinism to come to a conclusion. Such people might end up with a warped view of God's sovereignty in relation to man. As Dr. John Frame once said, the 5 points of Calvinism must be used only as an auxiliary to the Bible...not the other way around.

Here is one simple thing for you to think about.
If the Westminster Confession of Faith says that the elect come to Christ
"most freely, being made willing by His grace."
We know that no one is made willing against his will, but must have been willing to be made willing. True? God continually appeals to man's will. Therefore, what Luther teaches "the will is in bondage" is not true, even according to WC.

 

[robustheologian]

Agreed, as the big mistake is that some do not see that calvinism is a system that is trying to piece and put together what the entire Bible teaches on salvation, and that it is rooted in the belief that the fall destroyed us being able to 'come to Christ" of our own "free will

Amen. The five points go hand in hand with the five solae...one of them being sola scriptura meaning Calvinism's main point is the Bible and all other points are to support it.

 

[robustheologian]

Here is one simple thing for you to think about.
If the Westminster Confession of Faith says that the elect come to Christ
"most freely, being made willing by His grace."
We know that no one is made willing against his will, but must have been willing to be made willing. True? God continually appeals to man's will. Therefore, what Luther teaches "the will is in bondage" is not true, even according to WC.

First this has nothing to do with what I posted in reply. You should address that first...unless you'll admit that there's nothing that could be said.

??? How did you get that? The WCF's "most freely, being made willing by His grace" doesn't contradict Luther at all. The will is always in bondage to desire. Unregenerated men's wills are in bondage to their sinful desires. Regenerated men's desires are changed by God's grace and so they most freely will to come to Christ...but only after the work of the Spirit changing their desires or (as Ezekiel puts it) hearts.

 

[Yeshua1]

First this has nothing to do with what I posted in reply. You should address that first...unless you'll admit that there's nothing that could be said.

??? How did you get that? The WCF's "most freely, being made willing by His grace" doesn't contradict Luther at all. The will is always in bondage to desire. Unregenerated men's wills are in bondage to their sinful desires. Regenerated men's desires are changed by God's grace and so they most freely will to come to Christ...but only after the work of the Spirit changing their desires or (as Ezekiel puts it) hearts.

You must start at the fall of adam, and work from there as to how God saves us the way that he chose to do such, as many want to start with Adam state before the fall, and see us in that same state even unto now!

 

[robustheologian]

You must start at the fall of adam, and work from there as to how God saves us the way that he chose to do such, as many want to start with Adam state before the fall, and see us in that same state even unto now!

Yep...universality of man's condemnation is ground zero.

 

[Rebel]

God loves you so much that unless you do something to prove you love Him, He will torture you relentlessly and mercilessly for eternity.

But always remember: God loves you whatever the condition of your condition is.

If you have a problem with the scripture, you are arguing with the wrong person.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

I am closing this thread sometime after 1700 (5PM) Pacific Time.