Featured John Nelson Darby vs Baptist Confessions of Faith

OR quotes from ICE:

Almost all of us consider this a lot of bunk.
It goes in the same category as Icon who claimed: "No one could understand (or receive) Calvinism except by 'Divine Enlightenment.'"
Accordingly, every Calvinist here has received divine inspiration from God, has been spoken to by God, has in some way been enlightened by God that he was able to be a Calvinist. And, furthermore, not I, Darrell, or or any other non-Calvinist (according to Icon) am able to become a Calvinist without a special Divine Enlightenment from God Almighty.

Now that is not as radical as what Ice wrote about Darby, not even close.
Who is the more radical? It wasn't Darby!
But I am not defending him, because I don't follow the teachings of either Icon or Darby. I am just saying that their is a poster here who has a fixation with someone in history that has become his object so much so that to some it might be considered an idol.

 

Ernie Reisinger was a man of the Word. It is beyond dispute.

He appreciated the works of the Puritans who were saturated with the Word of God.

Anyone who takes the time to read the works of Dr. D-M-L-J will gain a profound understanding and reverence for the Scripture.

 

I don't doubt that. I am just saying how he was influenced; what made him change? It wasn't simply by studying the Bible, but rather by reading the Puritans. He judged dispensationalism by the Puritans not by the Word of God.

 

Why are you so insistent upon there being a parenthesis Chruch. Not one person in this Thread has insisted on placing a parenthesis in God's plan except you, is that an Amilennial teaching or something?

 

It may be that at least or more than half the posters on this board are dispensational in their theology. But you "understand" that we are all in error.
You "understand" that we are not facing the truths of history.
You are convinced that Darby is the "daddy" of pre-trib-dispensationalism, even if others can show you otherwise.

You are willing to make this such a matter of contention that with you it is no longer a matter of difference in theology or opinion, it is heresy.
As you have already put it in a more diplomatic way: "will not face the 'truth'..
Or,
"source of pre-trib error...

We believe what is not true, what is error, what is contrary to the Bible or IOW, heresy. That is what you believe about those who believe in dispensationalism.

Really, is it that important of a doctrine to die on?
The Lord may come and we all might be raptured before you have a chance to answer this. Just think of that!

Paul expected the Lord to return in his time; as did Peter, John and the other writers of the NT.

 

It has been shown in several post where it was shown in 100 - 300 A.D. the imminent return of Christ for His church was being watched for before the tribulation. It has been shown by the verse in this thread that Paul authored the pre-trib view you just can't dispute it without twisting it to show your view. You can not prove Paul did not mean the Warath of the Tribulation as Revelation 6:17 says began. Paul stated it to the Romans and Thessalonicans. Jesus also said He would return for His church. John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" where is Christ, in Heaven and what did Paul say in

1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Again Paul said "we" that is believers of the church age would be harpazo with those who are resurrected. Notice he says nothing about the dead not in Christ being raised. Then we will ever be with the Lord, nothing about the Great White Throne judgment taking place. Paul was answering a question from the believers in Thessalonica about the return of Christ for His church and this is His answer. So Paul here is teaching the Rapture and that is very clear in this passage of scripture.

 

Just one example:
Isaac Watts system of dispensationalism was closer to Scofield's than Darby's was. That in itself should shoot your theory in the foot.

 

Here is your Watts reply

http://scottaniol.com/wp-content/uploads/Aniol2.pdf

 

Let's take OR's statement at face value.
It is called a logical fallacy. It is a universal negative.

He starts off by saying "No one has shown..."

Can he prove that?
Absolutely not!
In order to prove that "no one" has shown..., he would have to survey all believers everywhere, not only during this time, but before this time, and before Darby's time. Every person (believer) that ever lived would have to be interviewed.
No one means "no one." That means absolutely everyone on the earth before Darby could never have believed in a pre-trib rapture. It was completely unknown to every believer that ever lived.

Can OR prove that? Does he have that kind of omniscience? Does he have that ability to survey all people from all ages from Christ onward to make absolutely sure that no one believed in a pre-trib rapture,

because his statement says no one has shown...

It is a universal negative which is impossible to prove. Unless he is God; unless he is omniscient, he cannot prove the statement he has made.

 

Maybe this will help you see it, here are some that show early church leaders, those in the early stages of the church who were looking for the immenent return of Christ for his church.

Lets look at them:

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) "was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just."

let's check another:

"Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.

In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

And another:

"Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:

In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”

So here we see at least three early Christian leaders who were looking forward to Christ return before the Tribulation. From around A.D. 150 to A.D. 350 they felt the Lord's imminent return would come. It didn't and thus Peter said scoffers would say where is His coming and it continues today scoffers asking where is His coming to snatch the church away.

Seems you had some misinformation that Darby started it seems these three taught it and one was under the Apostle John and knew first hand what the Apocalyptic Literary writing by John meant and he took it literally.

 

Jesus and paul both taught it in the scriptures though, and many of the ECF did hold to a form of it...

That darby and others rediscovered the truth would be similiar to calvin and luther rediscovering the truth of the gospel, saved by grace alone thru faith alone.


The big thing to consider though in all of this is that we can honestly have discussions and disagreements on what the bible teaches us on the second coming and the timing aspects, but who are you to judge if one is a heretic or not depending on which view they hold?

The church has allowed for pre/Mid/post trib/post Mil/A mil are all being valid, why can;t you?