John Nelson Darby vs Baptist Confessions of Faith

[OldRegular]

Jesus disagrees with you though on this, as he held that the father would be bringing his kingdom to Isreal at his second coming, as did Apostle peter!

And paul certainly held that God was not done with Isreal proper, so which do you believe in regarding this, the Confessions or the Bible?

I believe the Bible but I don't believe you so post some Scripture to prove what you say!

 

[OldRegular]

Now 25 years after the death, burial, resurrection, ascension, of Christ, and Pentecost, Paul prays for all Israel to be saved. He isn't praying for "spiritual Israel." He is praying for his "kinsmen in the flesh," his brethren, for Israel as a nation. This is at least 25 years after Pentecost.

I have often prayed for my "kinsmen in the flesh" as we all should. That doesn't mean GOD is going to set up a special earthly kingdom for them!

I would also note that frequently in my old age I find myself praying for the entire world.

 

[DHK]

I have often prayed for my "kinsmen in the flesh" as we all should. That doesn't mean GOD is going to set up a special earthly kingdom for them!

I would also note that frequently in my old age I find myself praying for the entire world.

In both chapters he was very specific who these "kinsmen" were:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

There is no doubt that this is the nation of Israel, the Jews, from whom Christ came--as it specifically says.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe the Bible but I don't believe you so post some Scripture to prove what you say!

Paul in Romans, peter in Acts, and John in revelation!

Thow in Zechariah and isaiah for good measure!

 

[OldRegular]

In both chapters he was very specific who these "kinsmen" were:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

There is no doubt that this is the nation of Israel, the Jews, from whom Christ came--as it specifically says.

It is to be expected that Paul would pray for the ethnic Jews. But Paul also makes a distinction between elect Israel and National Israel just as GOD does.

Moses prayed for the Israelites after they built the Golden Calf:

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Did GOD honor that prayer. NO!

GOD said: Exodus 32:33. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe the Bible but I don't believe you so post some Scripture to prove what you say!

Paul in Romans, peter in Acts, and John in revelation!

Thow in Zechariah and isaiah for good measure!

You can't be serious! That is a new low y1!

 

[DHK]

It is to be expected that Paul would pray for the ethnic Jews. But Paul also makes a distinction between elect Israel and National Israel just as GOD does.

Moses prayed for the Israelites after they built the Golden Calf:

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Did GOD honor that prayer. NO!

Yes he did. How can you say no?
God wanted to exterminate the nation right then and there. He wanted to wipe them off the face of the earth and then make a great nation out of Moses and his offspring. Moses plead for mercy and reminded God of his promises to Israel. God in his mercy spared Israel.
He answered the prayer of Moses. How can you say he didn't?

 

[OldRegular]

Yes he did. How can you say no?
God wanted to exterminate the nation right then and there. He wanted to wipe them off the face of the earth and then make a great nation out of Moses and his offspring. Moses plead for mercy and reminded God of his promises to Israel. God in his mercy spared Israel.
He answered the prayer of Moses. How can you say he didn't?

Read the edited post!

 

[DHK]

Read the edited post!

That refers back to verse 28:
Exodus 32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
Their names were blotted out of his book.
In the future those that rebelled would also face divine justice. That is the principle being taught there.

 

[OldRegular]

That refers back to verse 28:
Exodus 32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
Their names were blotted out of his book.
In the future those that rebelled would also face divine justice. That is the principle being taught there.

The point is Moses prayed for Israel; Paul prayed for Israel; their kinsmen after the flesh, but God says of national or ethnic Israel:

Romans 10:19-21
19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Matthew Mt 23:29-31, 34, 37
29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30. And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

3. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And then HE says:

Acts 2:22-24
22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

[Rippon]

Paul in Romans, peter in Acts, and John in revelation!

Thow in Zechariah and isaiah for good measure!

I will reiterate what OldRegular has said. How in the world can the above prove anything? He asked you to provide scriptural evidence. That means to quote biblical passages. Can you be honest enough to do that?

 

[Yeshua1]

I will reiterate what OldRegular has said. How in the world can the above prove anything? He asked you to provide scriptural evidence. That means to quote biblical passages. Can you be honest enough to do that?

Romans 11
Isaiah 66
Acts
17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’[a]

Zechariah
In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity. 2"It will come about in that day," declares the LORD of hosts, "that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land.…

 

[DHK]

The point is Moses prayed for Israel; Paul prayed for Israel; their kinsmen after the flesh, but God says of national or ethnic Israel:

Romans 10:19-21
19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Matthew Mt 23:29-31, 34, 37
29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30. And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

3. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And then HE says:

Acts 2:22-24
22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

So what is your point??
None of those scriptures negate the fact that there is a nation called Israel today. There are Christians and there is the nation of Israel. In 70 A.D. Titus destroyed their city and the Jews were scattered but they still existed. Paul prayed for them. If they were absorbed into Christianity or if Christianity was an extension of them, then Paul's prayer for their salvation was unnecessary. In fact he would seem like a lunatic to all hearing him pray for a nation that didn't exist.

 

[OldRegular]

So what is your point??
None of those scriptures negate the fact that there is a nation called Israel today. There are Christians and there is the nation of Israel. In 70 A.D. Titus destroyed their city and the Jews were scattered but they still existed. Paul prayed for them.

If they were absorbed into Christianity or if Christianity was an extension of them, then Paul's prayer for their salvation was unnecessary. In fact he would seem like a lunatic to all hearing him pray for a nation that didn't exist.

I believe Scripture shows that the only people who came back out of captivity were the Jews and the Levites and certain others from Benjamin and perhaps Simeon who were part of the Southern Kingdom. Whether Paul had in mind the twelve tribes, assuming they still existed, is unknown. Certainly the Jews, the tribe of Judah, still existed. It is my opinion that the only reason they came back out of captivity was because the Messiah was to come from the tribe of Judah. Nevertheless, Paul has taught that:

Romans 9:1-8
1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Apostles prayer for "his kinsmen according to the flesh" is similar to that of Moses. But please notice that GOD through the Apostle Paul says: For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

What does GOD mean. I say he means exactly what he says, there are two Israels, national or ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel. I say spiritual Israel because Paul tells us elsewhere:

Romans 11:1-8
1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

The true Israel, the Spiritual Israel, are the Elect and Paul speaking for GOD tells us: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

GOD has not cast aside those who are the elect. As proof GOD gives the example of Elijah when he was having a pity party crying: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

And GOID's answer was, "Stop whining Elijah": I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Now some people want to say GOD meant that there were exactly believing Israelites in the Northern kingdom. I think the number seven simply means HE had an exact number of elect and the number 1000 simply means he had a lot of Spiritual Israelites in the Northern Kingdom.

Paul addresses further the issue of spiritual Jews or spiritual Israel when he states: Romans 2:28, 29
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Again the Apostle Paul is drawing a very distinct difference between the spiritual {Elect} Jew or spiritual {Elect} Israelite and the national or ethnic Jew/Israelite.

There is no doubt that Paul was concerned about his "kinsmen after the flesh" and well he should be. Are you concerned about any unsaved members of your family, DHK, any "kinsmen after the flesh". I am and I pray continually for them as they come to mind but I rejoice as did the Apostle Paul that the major part of my immediate family, parents, children, grandchildren, inlaws, and an enormous number of my extended family, grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces, nephews, will be awaiting me when GOD takes me home. Nevertheless I will continue to pray for those who I believe are among the unsaved even though I just as firmly believe as did Paul that GOD will bring each of HIS Elect to salvation. That is exactly what Paul meant when he wrote: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

[/quote]

If they were absorbed into Christianity or if Christianity was an extension of them, then Paul's prayer for their salvation was unnecessary. In fact he would seem like a lunatic to all hearing him pray for a nation that didn't exist.

Certainly Paul would pray for his "kinsmen after the flesh". And it is very likely that some of those kinsmen were saved. In fact I know one, a wonderful young woman who married a nephew. She was one of the "kinsmen" after the flesh who was amongst the Elect. She died about 4 years ago at age 39 after an 8 year battle with melanoma. Her testimony was that she wanted her funeral sermon to be the Gospel hoping it would benefit her mother and sister!

GOD taught Paul about Election but GOD did not reveal the Elect to Paul. I have yet to see anyone walking around with the name Elect stenciled on their forehead.

There will be no removal of the "parenthesis Church" prior to any great seven year tribulation because the Church for which Jesus Christ died is not a "parenthesis"! It is the chaste Bride of Jesus Christ whom ethnic Israel conspired with Rome to slaughter on the Roman Cross. That Bride of Jesus Christ includes all the redeemed of all time because other than through the shed blood of Jesus Christ there is no redemption! You can believe that or not!

 

[OldRegular]

Romans 11
Isaiah 66
Acts
17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’[a]

y1, can't you even identify a passage of Scripture correctly. That is pathetic.

Zechariah
In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity. 2"It will come about in that day," declares the LORD of hosts, "that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land.…[/QUOTE]

??????????????I love Scripture but what is your point?

 

[Yeshua1]

y1, can't you even identify a passage of Scripture correctly. That is pathetic.

Zechariah
In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity. 2"It will come about in that day," declares the LORD of hosts, "that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land.…

??????????????I love Scripture but what is your point?[/QUOTE]

2 points!

peter stated that there would have come the Kingdom to earth if isreal would have received jesus as the Messiah, but that when they do as a nation and be reborn overnight, then the Kingdom will come!

Also, that isreal/national one, with jewish peoples, will have the entire nation reborn under messiah, and don't think that happened first time he came!

 

[OldRegular]

??????????????I love Scripture but what is your point?

2 points!

peter stated that there would have come the Kingdom to earth if isreal would have received jesus as the Messiah, but that when they do as a nation and be reborn overnight, then the Kingdom will come!

Also, that isreal/national one, with jewish peoples, will have the entire nation reborn under messiah, and don't think that happened first time he came![/QUOTE]

Nonsense!

 

[DHK]

2 points!

peter stated that there would have come the Kingdom to earth if isreal would have received jesus as the Messiah, but that when they do as a nation and be reborn overnight, then the Kingdom will come!

Also, that isreal/national one, with jewish peoples, will have the entire nation reborn under messiah, and don't think that happened first time he came!

Nonsense![/QUOTE]

When Jesus came he was ready to offer them the Kingdom. The Scripture is specific about this:
John 1:11 He came to His own, but His own (Israel) received him not.

Even at the time of the ascension his disciples were still expecting a physical kingdom:
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
--They were not thinking of a spiritual kingdom, rather "a restoration of a physical kingdom" that was once lost, perhaps David's kingdom that is so much referred to in Scripture.

Even the most devout Calvinist will admit that the disciples were expecting a physical kingdom. Gill says of this verse (6)

they asked of him, saying, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? The kingdom had been for some time taken away from the Jews, Judea was reduced to a Roman province, and was now actually under the power of a Roman governor. And the nation in general was in great expectation, that upon the Messiah's coming they should be delivered from the yoke of the Romans, and that the son of David would be king over them. The disciples of Christ had imbibed the same notions, and were in the same expectation of a temporal kingdom to be set up by their master, as is evident from Mt 20:21 and though his sufferings and death had greatly damped their spirits, and almost destroyed their hopes, see Lu 24:21 yet his resurrection from the dead, and his discoursing with them about the kingdom of God, and ordering them to wait at Jerusalem, the metropolis of that nation, for some thing extraordinary, revived their hopes, and emboldened them to put this question to him: and this general expectation of the Jews is expressed by them in the same language as here,

They fully expected "His Kingdom to come," even as they were taught to pray.

He rebuked them.
He told them not to worry about the time of the coming of the kingdom, they had more important business to be concerned with (verse 8).
But he did not deny that the kingdom would come. Of course it would, he just did not tell them when! It is still to come.

 

[DHK]

I believe Scripture shows that the only people who came back out of captivity were the Jews and the Levites and certain others from Benjamin and perhaps Simeon who were part of the Southern Kingdom. Whether Paul had in mind the twelve tribes, assuming they still existed, is unknown. Certainly the Jews, the tribe of Judah, still existed. It is my opinion that the only reason they came back out of captivity was because the Messiah was to come from the tribe of Judah.

There is no reason not to believe the 12 tribes still existed.
The southern tribes or Judah only consisted of Judah and Benjamin.
Jesus, Mary, Joseph, were all of Judah of course. So were all the relatives mentioned in Matthew 13:55.
Saul was a Benjamite.
Of the Northern tribes (Israel):
Acts 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
--Barnabas was a Levite.

Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
--Anna was of the tribe of Asher.

And there are others. The authors of the NT were not so much interested in giving ancestral details about Jewish believers because it was irrelevant and unimportant information to the gospel message. In fact it would hinder it because we are one in Christ (once saved).
The information that we do have is enough evidence to demonstrate that when an Israelite needed to, they could demonstrate their heritage.

Nevertheless, Paul has taught that:

Romans 9:1-8

The Apostles prayer for "his kinsmen according to the flesh" is similar to that of Moses. But please notice that GOD through the Apostle Paul says: For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

That simply means that people like Ahab and Jezebel (the most wicked King and Queen of Israel) were not true Israelites because they really did not believe in Jehovah. He is speaking of Israel, not believers in Christ. He is speaking of OT Israel.

What does GOD mean. I say he means exactly what he says, there are two Israels, national or ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel. I say spiritual Israel because Paul tells us elsewhere:

No. He is saying the exact same thing that we would say: "Not all Christians are Christians." Some are Christians in name only. That is what he means. And if you call that having two "Christianities" then so be it. It is one "in name only," and one that is true and Biblical. So it was then.

Romans 11:1-8

The true Israel, the Spiritual Israel, are the Elect and Paul speaking for GOD tells us: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

The "spiritual" Israel are simply those Israelites that believed compared to the "Ahabs" that did not. It has nothing to do with NT believers. It is still an OT illustration.

GOD has not cast aside those who are the elect. As proof GOD gives the example of Elijah when he was having a pity party crying: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

And GOID's answer was, "Stop whining Elijah": I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Now some people want to say GOD meant that there were exactly believing Israelites in the Northern kingdom. I think the number seven simply means HE had an exact number of elect and the number 1000 simply means he had a lot of Spiritual Israelites in the Northern Kingdom.

Yes, taking the Bible at face value was never your strong suit. If God says he has 7,000 men, you would prefer to say: "but O God, I know you meant something else--let me allegorize that for so that it sounds better and fits with my theology!"
--Again it is still an OT illustration, not speaking of the NT believer.

Paul addresses further the issue of spiritual Jews or spiritual Israel when he states: Romans 2:28, 29
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Again the Apostle Paul is drawing a very distinct difference between the spiritual {Elect} Jew or spiritual {Elect} Israelite and the national or ethnic Jew/Israelite.

Romans chapter 2 is speaking of the Jews, specifically unsaved Jews as the first few verses indicate. Now near the end of the chapter, he is still speaking of national Israel. Acceptance with Jehovah, even in Israel, was with the heart not with the flesh.

This interpretation is verified as one continues into chapter three:
Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

There is no doubt that Paul was concerned about his "kinsmen after the flesh" and well he should be. Are you concerned about any unsaved members of your family, DHK, any "kinsmen after the flesh". I am and I pray continually for them as they come to mind but I rejoice as did the Apostle Paul that the major part of my immediate family, parents, children, grandchildren, inlaws, and an enormous number of my extended family, grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces, nephews, will be awaiting me when GOD takes me home. Nevertheless I will continue to pray for those who I believe are among the unsaved even though I just as firmly believe as did Paul that GOD will bring each of HIS Elect to salvation. That is exactly what Paul meant when he wrote: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Paul was praying for his entire nation, the Israelites, just as you would pray for your fellow Americans. He was praying for his nation, the nation of Israel:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
--Paul was a Benjamite not from Judah "from whom Christ came."

Certainly Paul would pray for his "kinsmen after the flesh". And it is very likely that some of those kinsmen were saved.

Paul was praying for their salvation.
He would gladly spend an eternity in Hell, accursed from God, for the salvation of his nation. They were lost. Such love is incomprehensible. What love for his nation that they should be saved. They had rejected the Messiah. He prays for their salvation.
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

In fact I know one, a wonderful young woman who married a nephew. She was one of the "kinsmen" after the flesh who was amongst the Elect. She died about 4 years ago at age 39 after an 8 year battle with melanoma. Her testimony was that she wanted her funeral sermon to be the Gospel hoping it would benefit her mother and sister!

That is not the case here. These had rejected the Messiah and he is praying for their salvation. This very scenario shows the futility of Calvinism.

GOD taught Paul about Election but GOD did not reveal the Elect to Paul. I have yet to see anyone walking around with the name Elect stenciled on their forehead.

And thus Paul prays for the entire nation of Israel, though they had rejected the Messiah. There is still hope for them. God does not have two loves, but one; not two wills, but one--one desire that all might be saved. Thus he prays for the salvation of them all.

There will be no removal of the "parenthesis Church" prior to any great seven year tribulation because the Church for which Jesus Christ died is not a "parenthesis"!

No one said he did. You are barking up the wrong tree.

It is the chaste Bride of Jesus Christ whom ethnic Israel conspired with Rome to slaughter on the Roman Cross. That Bride of Jesus Christ includes all the redeemed of all time because other than through the shed blood of Jesus Christ there is no redemption! You can believe that or not!

Then Paul is a lunatic still praying for the nation that still lived 25 years after the event of the crucifixion.
He prays:
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
He prays for these ones, ethnic Israel that conspired with Rome to put to death Christ. You have too many contradictions in your religion to reconcile.

 

[OldRegular]

There is no reason not to believe the 12 tribes still existed.
The southern tribes or Judah only consisted of Judah and Benjamin.
Jesus, Mary, Joseph, were all of Judah of course. So were all the relatives mentioned in Matthew 13:55.
Saul was a Benjamite.
Of the Northern tribes (Israel):
Acts 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
--Barnabas was a Levite.

Read it again!

I believe Scripture shows that the only people who came back out of captivity were the Jews and the Levites and certain others from Benjamin and perhaps Simeon who were part of the Southern Kingdom. Whether Paul had in mind the twelve tribes, assuming they still existed, is unknown. Certainly the Jews, the tribe of Judah, still existed.