vooks
Active Member
Because I don't recall when the little horn defiled the heavenly sanctuary nor when a sanctuary was polluted by sins!
Read Leviticus
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Investigative Judgement
- Thread starter vooks
- Start date
Read Leviticus
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
For those using Bible-avoidance - this may not be of interest ...
But for those interested in "investigative Judgment" that we see in Dan 7
1. Books are opened.
2. Court sits and many many beings are there - not just God.
3. The Father is presiding - And Christ comes to the Court room - Judgment once it is setup.
4. Once that Judgment is ended - and judgment passes in favor of the saints -- the persecution of the saints ends
5. And we have the second coming.
[FONT="]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]
Dan 7
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.
Dan 7
23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
===============================
So then what are the "details" in that judgment - what issues are they reviewing to come to their conclusions "according to the text". (So probably not of interest if one is using Bible-avoidance with the text.)
But for those interested in "investigative Judgment" that we see in Dan 7
1. Books are opened.
2. Court sits and many many beings are there - not just God.
3. The Father is presiding - And Christ comes to the Court room - Judgment once it is setup.
4. Once that Judgment is ended - and judgment passes in favor of the saints -- the persecution of the saints ends
5. And we have the second coming.
[FONT="]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]
Dan 7
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.
Dan 7
23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
===============================
So then what are the "details" in that judgment - what issues are they reviewing to come to their conclusions "according to the text". (So probably not of interest if one is using Bible-avoidance with the text.)
Dan 7:21-22 NKJV
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
Originally Posted by BobRyan
2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".
[FONT="]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="] 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
[FONT="]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
[FONT="]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
[FONT="]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Is this your "detail avoidance" way of saying that the Investigative Judgment is clearly presented in Dan 7 and Romans 2 - and 2Cor 5:10 but you don't see how the Levitical model endorses or predicts it??
in Christ,
Bob
vooks
Active Member
Invented in 1840s to explain away the date setting epic fails :tonofbricks:
vooks
Active Member
BobRyan,
Your confessed sins are in heaven defiling God's presence and Jesus the forensic auditor is busy combing through them to see if you are fit or unfit of eternal life?:laugh:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him will perish should God unforgive his sins from 1844 till who knows what:tear:
I weep for you
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
soo much Bible-vacuous rant as you continue to ignore Daniel 7 and Romans 2 details dictating the Investigative Judgment. (Which is the subject of this thread as it turns out)
Why so fearful of scripture Vooks??
Why must you run from it - when it is the very topic of the thread?
Why so fearful of scripture Vooks??
Why must you run from it - when it is the very topic of the thread?
vooks
Active Member
Walk me through how confessed sins defiled the sacrifice which then defiled the sanctuary. Daniel is judging the kingdoms, the little horn.
BobRyan, suddenly you don't trust the 300 years of Protestant Reformation:tonofbricks:
vooks
Active Member
Time for scriptures
Hebrews 6:19-20 (KJV)
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews penned in the First Century is telling us that our hope is the anchor of our soul, and it enters WITHIN THE VEIL where Jesus ENTERED
When did Jesus ENTER behind the veil? SDAs by 'inspiration' of Ellen White insist it was in 1844. But Hebrews would have us believe Jesus had entered by the time it was penned!:tonofbricks:
Hebrews 6:19-20 (KJV)
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews penned in the First Century is telling us that our hope is the anchor of our soul, and it enters WITHIN THE VEIL where Jesus ENTERED
When did Jesus ENTER behind the veil? SDAs by 'inspiration' of Ellen White insist it was in 1844. But Hebrews would have us believe Jesus had entered by the time it was penned!:tonofbricks:
Why so fearless against Scripture, Bob Ryan?
The pinnacle of arrogant impudence:- <<<Daniel 7 and Romans 2 details dictating the Investigative Judgment>>>
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
For those using Bible-avoidance - this may not be of interest ...
But for those interested in "investigative Judgment" that we see in Dan 7
1. Books are opened.
2. Court sits and many many beings are there - not just God.
3. The Father is presiding - And Christ comes to the Court room - Judgment once it is setup.
4. Once that Judgment is ended - and judgment passes in favor of the saints -- the persecution of the saints ends
5. And we have the second coming.
[FONT="]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]
Dan 7
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.
Dan 7
23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
===============================
So then what are the "details" in that judgment - what issues are they reviewing to come to their conclusions "according to the text". (So probably not of interest if one is using Bible-avoidance with the text.)
Your sandbox fluff use of ad hominem in response to the text 'noted'.
Is this where you are trying to demonstrate the truth of my signature line?
If so... consider it proven.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
TWO veils according to Hebrews - Christ began His work in heaven in the first section of the Heavenly Sanctuary according to the text - not within the second veill - but the first veil.
Heb 9
3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail. 6 Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
thus -- the point remains.
in Christ,
Bob
vooks
Active Member
He entered ONCE, high priest entered ONCE
One Baptism
Active Member
Yes, brother vooks, we as Seventh-day Adventists fully understand this text, and the entering into "the holy place" "once".
Jesus indeed entered once for all, but into Where, according to the text specifically in Hebrews 9:12?
It was into the Sanctuary, the Holy place, through the First veil alone, not through the Second then:
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Hebrews 9:12
See Hebrews 9:2-3:
For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. Hebrews 9:2
And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Hebrews 9:3
And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Hebrews 9:3
Paul is clear about the typology, First comes the First {part of the} Tabernacle, wherein was the Candlestick and the Table, even along with the Altar of Incense:
Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. Hebrews 9:6
Where is Jesus standing in Acts 7 {part of the Church of Ephesus} and where is He seen walking in Revelation 2:1?
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; Revelation 2:1
Where is Jesus standing in Acts 7 {part of the Church of Ephesus} and where is He seen walking in Revelation 2:1?
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; Revelation 2:1
Which of the two compartments of the Tented Sanctuary is that?
It is verily the First, not the Second.
Hebrews 9:12 {as also vs 24 "agia" and vs 25, "ta agia"} simply reads ta agia, which is the Sanctuary, and not agia agion, the Holy of Holies.
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; Hebrews 9:25
Paul is very clear about the separation of the two veils. It never says Jesus entered through the Second Veil, and did not then need to at His 2nd Ascension, being from the Mt of Olives. We see Jesus ascending in Psalms 24 and compare Revelation 4 and 5 {compare to Acts 1-2 and Psalms 133; Exodus 29:7; Leviticus 8:12; there also needed to be 12 - Exodus 28:21-22, 29:5, 39:14, then the Holy Spirit was sent – Revelation 5:6}. Revelation 4 speaks of the First Veil:
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Revelation 4:1
Thus John is taken in the Holy Place, the First 'Tabernacle' of Heaven, revealing the 7 lamps which sat directly across from {before} the Table of Shewbread which was Crowned, and had two stacks, representing the Throne of God in the Holy Place:
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Revelation 4:5
Revelation 3:8, in the period of the 6th Church, thousand{s} of years {1800+ yrs} later from the First Church of Ephesus, another door/veil is seen opened in Heaven, while the first was closed, and this is also witnessed in Daniel:
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Revelation 3:7
I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Revelation 3:8
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniel 7:13
I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Revelation 3:8
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniel 7:13
Jesus was presented once as the Sacrifice [Calvary], once for all {Revelation 5:6, notice past tense "as it had been slain"}.
If you mean that Jesus was not again brought into the presence of the Father since His Ascension from the Mt of Olives, that would be incorrect, since Jesus and the Father moved from the Holy Place in the Heavenly into the Most Holy Place in 1844 {Dan 8:14 &c, and then Thrones being "set" in both Daniel and Revelation}, and the Father went first, the Son coming after as is apparent from Dan and Rev.
Jesus didn't stand in the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly in the first Church age of Ephesus, but rather began to do so in the 6th Church Age of Philadelphia.
Jesus will also move again back into the Holy Place, not as Mediator, that door will have been shut forever {Luke 13:25; Daniel 12:1 &c}, but coming as King of Kings, before coming out unto this earth, Hebrews 9:28 and Leviticus 16, even as 2 Kings 11:11-12.
It is quite apparent from Revelation 20 that the Scapegoat portion of Leviticus 16 & 23 is still yet to take place.
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vooks
Active Member
You are spamming. Just note Hebrews' theme is Day of atonement and the rest will fall in place. And Jesus SAT at the right hand of the Father right after ascension. Is there any holier place than that in heaven?
In the meantime could you try something meaningful to this thread by showing me who outside EGW taught Investigative Judgement, or admit it was 'made up' in 1840s ?:tonofbricks:
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One Baptism
Active Member
No brother vooks it isn't. If you read more closely, you will be able to see that it is speaking of the Sanctuary inauguration ceremony, not the Day of Atonement. Please, ... please take some time and go and look in the OT a little more before you make your next post, for if you rush, you may stumble greatly here.
vooks
Active Member
Since you have responded, you come across as an intelligent primate capable of comprehension. And you have severally quoted non SDA sources to make a point elsewhere. So it beats me that you have been following this thread and you have ignored the question.
Who besides Ellen White taught Investigative Judgement? :tonofbricks:
Because this doctrine of Satan is wide and convoluted, you may want to show me;
1. who has ever taught a pre-advent judgement of saints of any sort running for years
2. Who has ever taught of heaven being defiled by confessed sins
3. Who has ever taught that Jesus blood DEFILED heaven
4. Who has ever taught of Daniel 8:14 referring to heaven
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One Baptism
Active Member
Excellent! In order to be "sitting" at the "right hand of God", God the Father must then have ...? [Revelation 5:1,7; etc] Please think about that.
Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; Hebrews 8:1
A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Hebrews 8:2
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Hebrews 8:6
[see also Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62, 16:19; Luke 20:42, 22:69; Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3,13, 8:1, 10:12, 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22, Revelation 3:21; etc]
A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Hebrews 8:2
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Hebrews 8:6
Why accept one part and not the other in regards to the Heavenly ["true tabernacle"] Sanctuary?
And this is connected to:
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: - Luke 13:25
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: - Luke 13:25
To be sitting and 'seated' is not implying that Christ Jesus never gets up from the Throne. For here we see Jesus "standing", in the Ephesus Church:
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:55
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:56
To be 'seated', means in authority. By the way, is Christ Jesus the Judge? What happens when the Judge is 'seated'?
Both, in Daniel and Revelation, Christ Jesus is seen moving from one location to another in the Heavenly:
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; Revelation 2:1
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniel 7:13
The Throne of God is movable [see Ezekiel, etc]:
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. Daniel 7:9
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. Revelation 4:2
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. Revelation 4:2
Please consider these things. Jesus has dual functions, just as He is God/man, God/messenger, as he is King/Priest, Priest/High Priest, as He is Priest/Sacrifice, etc, etc.
To be "standing" is as Mediator/Advocate - Priest/HighPriest
To be "seated" is as Authority - King of Kingdom of Grace, on the "throne of Grace" [Hebrews 4:16], not yet on the Throne of Glory [Matthew 19:28, 25:31].
People that take the passages that Jesus is "seated" and take it to mean Jesus is eternally glued to the throne of Grace and cannot get up and move, have a great misunderstanding of how the Bible means to be so "seated".
vooks
Active Member
Since you have responded, you come across as an intelligent primate capable of comprehension. And you have severally quoted non SDA sources to make a point elsewhere. So it beats me that you have been following this thread and you have ignored the question.
Who besides Ellen White taught Investigative Judgement? :tonofbricks:
Because this doctrine of Baalzebub is wide and convoluted, you may want to show me;
1. who has ever taught a pre-advent judgement of saints of any sort running for years
2. Who has ever taught of heaven being defiled by confessed sins
3. Who has ever taught that Jesus blood DEFILED heaven
4. Who has ever taught of Daniel 8:14 sanctuary referring to heaven
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One Baptism
Active Member
In the past, Scripture for the first [thus Father, Jesus, & Holy Spirit and also the Prophets, Apostles, etc], as myself, and brother BobRyan have demonstrated. - http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=44084
In a brief answer, seeing as the other material demonstrated for you is being placed to the side:
In more recent times, from the wikipedia:
"... In the 1850s, J. N. Loughborough and Uriah Smith began to teach that a judgment had begun in 1844 when Christ entered the Most Holy Place. Subsequently, in 1857, James White (husband of Ellen G. White) wrote in the Review and Herald (now the Adventist Review) that an "investigative judgment" was taking place in heaven, in which the lives of professed believers would pass in review before God.[10] This is the first time that the phrase "investigative judgment" was used. ..." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigative_judgment#Origins
In other references, we see James White, Uriah Smith, J.N. Loughborough, Joseph Bates, R.F. Cotrell, Hiram Edson, W.W. Prescott, J.N. Andrews, O.R.L. Crosier, A.T. Jones, E.J. Waggoner, M.L. Andreasen and many, many others, many millions of Seventh-day Adventists [though as I am sure you are aware, numbers does not a doctrine make, but what saith the LORD in Scripture [as demonstrated], right?], etc, etc. - http://text.egwwritings.org/search....Length=paragraph&hitsOnPage=20&sortBy=perbook
What does "Laodicea" [the 7th Church], mean?
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