.needs help

[Iconoclast]

Back to the other thread-

In post 26...Judith thanked me for answering her question;

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
The saving Love of God is only found In Christ. Romans 5 Rom 8

It is a covenant love. Jer 31

The love of God is only for those who believe.

The wrath of God abides upon the unbeliever.
God is good to all men

God only savingly loves the elect IN Christ. Jesus died for them and turns away the wrath from them alone. He is the propitiation,

Gods love finds the elect all over the world.

Thank you for responding to the question.

Judith was content with the answer.....she did not say she agreed or disagreed...but she was content that I offered an answer....

you were not happy with my answer and sought to stir the pot...but Judith did not bite on the bait;

in post 27 you say this;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judith View Post
Thank you for responding to the question.

So will you comment on what he has said?

Are his assertions correct and founded upon a Biblical Basis?


God bless.

Judith answered in post 28;

It was not a debate question. I posed a question and that was all. He answered my question based on his belief. Only those who hold his view of limited atonement can properly respond to the question. I wanted to know how those who hold this belief dealt with God's love in regards to everyone or not. He answered that. The rest would be high jacking the thread.

 

[Iconoclast]

I answer you in post 30;

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Darrell C

Hello DC

I have answered the question:

Thanks for responding in detail. We can make some progress here because of that. We differ on several things, agree on a few. Let's look at why we differ.


Quote:

God manifested and manifests His love for the world as a whole through taking upon Himself the form of man and dying

Yes ,thankfully he did...Phil2;1-7


Quote:

to present the opportunity for salvation to every man

,

This is not true in any way. Think this out DC. When Jesus came to earth, millions had already lived and died in their sins, never hearing about Jesus.

many live and die in their sins today without hearing anything about Him.

Also scripture speaks of the death and ACCOMPLISHED salvation as a Covenant death........not a potential opportunity.
While we offer the gospel to all men believing that all we offer it to are given an opportunity to believe.....the fact is only those ordained of God to believe will believe. That is a true and revealed truth, but as far as we are concerned , we offer the truth of the gospel to all men.


Quote:

which He is currently doing through the Ministry of the Comforter.

Not one person will stand before God and say "But...you didn't tell me!"

God manifests this same love through the internal witness given to every man and woman, This revelation does not inform them of the saving love of God as all men are truth suppressors.as well as through the testimony of Creation.

I agree with you that all men have the light of conscience and the light of nature, which is a revelation to them that there is a God.

Quote:
Because He is actually...not willing that any should perish, even as we are told in His Word.

DC.....we are not told this anywhere in the His word. It is not there. God is very willing that many perish,mt7...in fact multitudes will be told depart from Me, I never at anytime knew you.

The half of a verse you are offering 2pet3:9 has another half....God is longsuffering to USWARD..... not willing that any perish.

Every single person peter is speaking of is going to be saved, God being longsuffering , bearing with the sin and wickedness of the scoffers, until each and everyone he has designed to save, will be born and be saved. That is the actual context of the passage....I know you and others get very excited with the 6 words....not willing that any should perish....but you need to read the whole chapter...look at how Peter sums it up;

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Quote:
That is not what is in view. Nobody is saying everyone gets saved, we are looking at God's love and whether it is bestowed only on the Elect, or if it is bestowed upon all men.

If we both say that not all men are going to be saved....Then we are focused on the saving love of God...that is what is being discussed.
I offered you verses that show it, but it seems as if the truth in those verses eluded you. I think if we go over those verses again...we can see it with a careful reading


Quote:

Now try to look at men before they are saved. All men are born separated from God, lost, and natural

.

yes....

Quote:
To think that God loved those who are of the Elect because He saw in advance that they would choose to respond to the Gospel,

No biblical Calvinist would ever believe such a blasphemous idea.

The biblical God is omniscient. He does nothing because of what man does or does not do, as He never increases or decreases in knowledge. He knows all and does not need to learn anything.

God loved the elect even when they were dead in sin....He set His love upon them when they were unlovely. He makes us to be accepted in the Beloved.


Quote:

They are not saved before they are saved. They stand on equal ground with all men until their understanding is enlightened by God and they yield in obedience to the Gospel

.

Are you going to say that only the Elect are brought under conviction?

Yes...only the elect are savingly convicted and granted repentance unto life, the sorrow of the world leads to death...
2cor7
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death



Quote:
Well now...scripture suggests otherwise;
2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Scripture does not suggest otherwise, lol.

Sure it does.....when God spoke to national Israel...do you think He was unaware of the other nations? Or does this suggest a different relationship that God had with the one nation?

Quote:
Does this nullify the fact that Christ was the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world? It's a very simple verse. Does this nullify Paul's teaching that even the Gentiles kept the Law of God because of the internal witness God has placed in every man?

Romans 1:18-21


Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)




There is only one reason why we love God...because He first loved us.

God initiates salvation, not man.

agreed for the most part...

Quote:
Sorry, I do not see Elect in this verse...
Completely irrelevant.
Could you please quote whatever it is that you derived this conclusion from, lol.
Relevance?
We are not discussing the Security of the Believer

.

DC....you have completely missed what I was offering to you here.....let me clarify , then when you re-read it maybe you will" SEE" what you missed the first time.

we are discussing the saving love of God.....I state that it is a Covenant love given only to the elect...you suggest it is given to all men everywhere.

here is Romans 5;
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God

is shed abroad in our hearts
by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

The Holy Ghost.....is only given to the Elect.....that is those who are saved, justified.....take a marker and mark or circle the word us in romans 5...it is only speaking of the JUSTIFIED;

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

The word elect does not appear in every verse of the bible....but every saved person is elect...

Now ...how does the LOVE OF GOD that justifies dead sinners get into a sinner?
the text says.....By the HOLY GHOST who is given unto US......
The unsaved DO NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVEN UNTO THEM TO SHED THE SAVING LOVE OF GOD IN THEIR HEART.
DC...do you see it now? Do you see the relevance now? everywhere the saving love of God is mentioned...it is spoken of as IN Christ...in saving Union with Christ Jesus....now re-read romans 8...with the same truth in mind and you will "SEE" it and it's relevance.......

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
__________________

 

[Darrell C]

Of course it's true that Acts 17:30 refers to all people everywhere to repent.

I have not denied it --you are lying.

You are indeed sick. I have told you that "all men" or "everyone" and wordings like that are often in reference to a limited number of people. Sometimes it means each and every such as "For all have sinned..."

It depends on the context --something that you ignore in your cookie-cutter approach.

You say it depends on context, yet I am not the one ignoring context. I can understand seeing generalities and figures of speech based on your doctrine, but I have shown you that is not always the case.

God has called men everywhere to repent. Yet you are saying God has not called all men to repentance. It is not just a matter of all places, but that is a universal command to all men. And just as you have been shown that even in the Old Testament this same principle was in place, it is even more true today with the Revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, you are given again the chance to address this Scripture:


Acts 17:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


In view is the Economies prior to the revelation of the Gospel. We have seen that the gospel of prior economies went out to the whole world before, and while you mike take a general approach, you cannot do that here, because it is sent to all men, everywhere, and the reason is because the whole world will be judged.

Who is left out of that judgment?


See believers distinguished from unbelievers here:


1 Timothy 4:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11 These things command and teach.


Now see a generality: God is the Savior of the whole world. That does not mean all people will be saved, it simply shows that the world has opportunity to be saved by the Savior...God.

Especially to those that are saved.

And just as God has done in times past, He has given men all men revelation to an extent that they will not have an excuse. That doesn't mean every man everywhere hears the Gospel, but all men everywhere will hear...from God.

Your "assessments" are strange. Again, Icon has never said or indicated that he can figure out who the elect are and who are not. Don't say false things.


Well, from your neo-orthodox perspective --How so? You would surprise me with a detailed answer.

And that is what this forum primarily is for you, it seems, a club where you can defend your friends. Great. Now try defending the Gospel.

The one you are teaching has God perfectly content that men be eternally separated. The one Paul taught shows that God is just and gives opportunity to every man to obey. That is seen to be true...throughout the Bible.

It is a caricature of God that has God to be a tyrant, a respecter of persons. Many examples of God's love to the world have been given, and not once have you, or your buddies...actually addressed those issues. You have simply presented apologetics for what I guess you feel defends Calvinism.

I will no longer use this thread as an example of the evasion of issue that was the problem in the first thread...that has been made clear enough already.

Neo-orthodox? No...ancient. And I have shown that in the posts, and would just recommend, if doctrine becomes the issue, instead of personality conflict, that you go through them again and just notice the issues that have been avoided.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

you made two major mistakes today in your posting as well as the other nauseating posts
I'll be able to address them in about an hour and a half

In setting out to satisfy the goad to your pride, you have made yourself the example, my friend.

If you want to have a serious discussion, then you will need to put a little more effort into it than you do at present time.

I spent quite a bit of time, time I will never have back, tracking down the quotes in your post, and while I did so, you have stolen time from me that, as I said, I will never get back.

In the future, stop robbing your antagonists, and do them the courtesy of properly quoting procedure. I have shown you at least three times that this is very simple, and still you do not do it.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to begin to address the posts, instead of your wounded pride.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C
Romans 1:18-21

Good verses men are responsible before God and without excuse...but they are truth suppressors which I said to you and you denied it...I will show it when we get to that post. Do you deny you posted that? Would you like to change your statement now?


Yes they are truth suppressors...you denied this and question it now.


Here you denied it in post 35;
[QUOTEQuote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
This revelation does not inform them of the saving love of God as all men are truth suppressors.

That is not even relevant, even if it were true, which it is not]

here you go;Greek: Apokaluptetai (3SPPI) gar orge theou ap' ouranou epi pasan asebeian kai adikian anthropon ton ten aletheian en adikia| katechontin, (PAPMPG)
Amplified: For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
NLT: But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: Now the holy anger of God is disclosed from Heaven against the godlessness and evil of those men who render truth dumb and inoperative by their wickedness. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: For there is revealed God’s wrath from heaven upon every lack of reverence and upon every unrighteousness of men who in unrighteousness are holding down the truth. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.







The internal wtness and light of creation show there is a God.
It does not inform them of the cross.
Most men and woman have lived and died without that knowledge...

However....that was not what I was speaking about, so I do not need you as a spokesmen....all of you guys do this...

I was speaking about what the text actually says. You boast much about wanting to use scripture but in every case it does not teach what you want it to.

[ 2,,G2722, katecho ]
"to hold firmly, hold fast" (kata, "down," and No. 1), is rendered "hold fast" in 1 Corinthians 11:2, RV (AV, "keep"); 1 Thessalonians 5:21; Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14 (RV); Hebrews 10:23; "hold down," Romans 1:18, RV, of unrighteous men who restrain the spread of truth by their unrighteousness, or, as RV marg., "who hold the truth in (or with) unrighteousness," contradicting their profession by their conduct (cp. Romans 2:15, RV); in Romans 7:6, RV, "holden," AV, "held," of the Law as that which had "held" in bondage those who through faith in Christ were made dead to it as a means of life.




Your name calling impresses no one.



Romans 2:12-15


I'll walk you through this, because I want you to see your open hostility to the Word of God and His Sovereignty, as well as how this shows His love expressed and manifested to...and in sinners.



Not the way you are about to abuse it...no I do not agree with you.



No..because you are about to proclaim a gospel of works.

Romans 2:12-15

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)




Not with you no...I do not agree , because you are going to make a heretical statement.

Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

.

This is just more scripture you are going to abuse in your next paragraph..i will make it large print for you as I expose your error...so you do not miss it.:thumbsup:



because of His love for them[/B]...justifies them because they are obedient to the works of the Law written on their hearts.[/B

So you claim that God justifies gentiles BECAUSE THEY ARE OBEDIENT TO THE LAW........????

HERE IS SOME HELP FOR YOU;

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,

but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,

and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


This you have posted...as posted is the heretical position of a works gospel.

That was your first major blunder....now I will show why you do this...in part:thumbsup:

[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I appreciate you remaking my points.

Keep up the good work.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C



Looking at the confession of faith is very instructive...it would supply much of what you lack




Here is your second major blunder of you recent musings......No one was talking about your salvation at all.....so all your whining and complaining about this is because of your lack of reading comprehension...no wonder you are void of truth

Here is what was being discussed;



You claimed I nullified eph 2:8-10....I said this has not taken place....how does that even speak of your "professed salvation"...


By the way...in post 61 and in other posts...why was it necessary to post rom2....4times in a row.....Rippon pointed out how you are longwinded and repetitive....Post once and offer 4 comments....no one is going to read repetitive posting.

Again, here is what is being discussed, in both threads:

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

I guess the OP may have had an intent of raising the question, the magic bullet as to God hating some, and loving only the Elect. In the responses given, no-one has successfully dismantled Scripture's very simple message...God loves the world.

The OP in this thread abandoned what was never even approached in the last thread (found here for those who want to track this discussion) in favor of seeking to embarrass someone.

How's that going for you, my friend?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Back to the other thread-

In post 26...Judith thanked me for answering her question;



Judith was content with the answer.....she did not say she agreed or disagreed...but she was content that I offered an answer....

you were not happy with my answer and sought to stir the pot...but Judith did not bite on the bait;

in post 27 you say this;



Judith answered in post 28;

It was not a debate question. I posed a question and that was all. He answered my question based on his belief. Only those who hold his view of limited atonement can properly respond to the question. I wanted to know how those who hold this belief dealt with God's love in regards to everyone or not. He answered that. The rest would be high jacking the thread.

Not sure how responding to the question would be considered high-jacking, lol.

I'm sure you can rationalize that for yourself, just don't think that anyone else will.

And don't forget, you still have the burden of responding to the posts I have done in this thread as well. I have shown that your quoting etiquette is sloppy and how that affects a discussion, so I do not to give more example of that. So have fun "quoting" the other thread, just remember...you still need to address the ones in this thread, lol.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I answer you in post 30;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Darrell C

Hello DC





Thanks for responding in detail. We can make some progress here because of that. We differ on several things, agree on a few. Let's look at why we differ.


Quote:
Yes ,thankfully he did...Phil2;1-7


Quote:


,

This is not true in any way. Think this out DC. When Jesus came to earth, millions had already lived and died in their sins, never hearing about Jesus.

many live and die in their sins today without hearing anything about Him.

Also scripture speaks of the death and ACCOMPLISHED salvation as a Covenant death........not a potential opportunity.
While we offer the gospel to all men believing that all we offer it to are given an opportunity to believe.....the fact is only those ordained of God to believe will believe. That is a true and revealed truth, but as far as we are concerned , we offer the truth of the gospel to all men.


Quote:

I agree with you that all men have the light of conscience and the light of nature, which is a revelation to them that there is a God.




DC.....we are not told this anywhere in the His word. It is not there. God is very willing that many perish,mt7...in fact multitudes will be told depart from Me, I never at anytime knew you.

The half of a verse you are offering 2pet3:9 has another half....God is longsuffering to USWARD..... not willing that any perish.

Every single person peter is speaking of is going to be saved, God being longsuffering , bearing with the sin and wickedness of the scoffers, until each and everyone he has designed to save, will be born and be saved. That is the actual context of the passage....I know you and others get very excited with the 6 words....not willing that any should perish....but you need to read the whole chapter...look at how Peter sums it up;

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.




If we both say that not all men are going to be saved....Then we are focused on the saving love of God...that is what is being discussed.
I offered you verses that show it, but it seems as if the truth in those verses eluded you. I think if we go over those verses again...we can see it with a careful reading


Quote:


.

yes....




No biblical Calvinist would ever believe such a blasphemous idea.

The biblical God is omniscient. He does nothing because of what man does or does not do, as He never increases or decreases in knowledge. He knows all and does not need to learn anything.

God loved the elect even when they were dead in sin....He set His love upon them when they were unlovely. He makes us to be accepted in the Beloved.


Quote:


.

Yes...only the elect are savingly convicted and granted repentance unto life, the sorrow of the world leads to death...
2cor7
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death



Quote:
Well now...scripture suggests otherwise;
2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.



Sure it does.....when God spoke to national Israel...do you think He was unaware of the other nations? Or does this suggest a different relationship that God had with the one nation?







Romans 1:18-21


Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)




There is only one reason why we love God...because He first loved us.

God initiates salvation, not man.

agreed for the most part...





.

DC....you have completely missed what I was offering to you here.....let me clarify , then when you re-read it maybe you will" SEE" what you missed the first time.

we are discussing the saving love of God.....I state that it is a Covenant love given only to the elect...you suggest it is given to all men everywhere.

here is Romans 5;
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God

is shed abroad in our hearts
by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

The Holy Ghost.....is only given to the Elect.....that is those who are saved, justified.....take a marker and mark or circle the word us in romans 5...it is only speaking of the JUSTIFIED;

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

The word elect does not appear in every verse of the bible....but every saved person is elect...

Now ...how does the LOVE OF GOD that justifies dead sinners get into a sinner?
the text says.....By the HOLY GHOST who is given unto US......
The unsaved DO NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVEN UNTO THEM TO SHED THE SAVING LOVE OF GOD IN THEIR HEART.
DC...do you see it now? Do you see the relevance now? everywhere the saving love of God is mentioned...it is spoken of as IN Christ...in saving Union with Christ Jesus....now re-read romans 8...with the same truth in mind and you will "SEE" it and it's relevance.......

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
__________________

Not only is the quoting so sloppy that no-one knows who said what, which is how you manage to maintain a charade of actually responding, you think offering more commentary changes the address you received.

Learn to quote, Iconoclast, you owe it to those on this forum, and you owe it to yourself, but most importantly...you owe it to God.

He did not die for you that you could be an example of emotional turmoil and sloth for the world to see.


God bless.

 

[Iconoclast]

you're trying to hide behind the whole quoting thing this is not fooling anyonewhat is being shown as you answer the first time and didn't properly respond to the actual text all this complaining about the quotes and this and that it has nothing to do with the fact that you are not responding to the text because you've got nothing to say

I pointed out that you just posted that God saves Gentiles because of that works and all you could do is respond about the quotes

 

[Darrell C]

you're trying to hide behind the whole quoting thing this is not fooling anyonewhat is being shown as you answer the first time and didn't properly respond to the actual text all this complaining about the quotes and this and that it has nothing to do with the fact that you are not responding to the text because you've got nothing to say

I pointed out that you just posted that God saves Gentiles because of that works and all you could do is respond about the quotes

It's not just about quoting procedure, Iconoclast, and you know it.

That is an important aspect of it, but there is also the issues of proper response which entails...our attitude and conduct.

And when those issues over-shadow the Doctrine of the Bible in our lives...we excuse ourselves as useful witnesses for Christ. And have become of those seeking self glory, because we make ourselves the central focus rather than Christ, and that is our goal.

If you can read this thread and not see it is about you, or even about me, then you are missing what few others are.


God bless.

 

[Iconoclast]

and clearly you didn't answer anything in these two posts you keep making excuses and talking about everything else under the Sun you make it about you look at every criticism you offer to me so the two women to Rippon and apply it to you when you see it fits you like a glove

try answering the post not offering lectures on what you think is right and wrong

 

[Darrell C]

and clearly you didn't answer anything in these two posts you keep making excuses and talking about everything else under the Sun you make it about you look at every criticism you offer to me so the two women to Rippon and apply it to you when you see it fits you like a glove

try answering the post not offering lectures on what you think is right and wrong

Would this be a bad time to point out that the title is forever fixed" Needs Help. Iconoclast."

Just trying to help, Iconoclast, really.

One day you might understand that better.


God bless.

 

[Rippon]

God has called men everywhere to repent.

God has commanded all people everywhere to repent.

Yet you are saying God has not called all men to repentance.

God has commanded all people everywhere to repent and believe. But He gives faith and repentance to those of His special choosing.

1 Timothy 4:10

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Now see a generality: God is the Savior of the whole world. That does not mean all people will be saved, it simply shows that the world has opportunity to be saved by the Savior...God.

You are reading things into the text that are not there. There is no mention of "opportunity to be saved" in the text. There is no potentiality there.

Especially to those that are saved.

The Lord is indeed the Savior of believers. But His Saviorhood is not salvific towards non-believers --the non-elect.

John Owen, the well-known Puritan said that God the Father has a general protecting providence over all --this applies to the non-believer where God the Father is the Preservor. But with respect to the Church He is indeed their Savior.

And just as God has done in times past, He has given men all men revelation to an extent that they will not have an excuse. That doesn't mean every man everywhere hears the Gospel, but all men everywhere will hear...from God.

I can agree with much of the above --but with an exception to "will hear from God." Nature is a witness to God as the Creator. The conscience of everyone is from God and is a testament from Him. Things like that. But there is no word from God to many in the past, present and future. These "testimonies" are not enough to save anyone.

The one Paul taught shows that God is just and gives opportunity to every man to obey.

That is your tradtion speaking --not God's Word. He is not an equal-opportunity Kind of God.

It is a caricature of God that has God to be a tyrant, a respecter of persons. Many examples of God's love to the world have been given,

It's very clear that you are the one mischaracterizing a plethora of times.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post

God has called men everywhere to repent.

God has commanded all people everywhere to repent.

Luke 5:31-33

King James Version (KJV)

31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


And the emphasis is even stronger with the Gospel being the revelation provided men.

How has God commanded all men everywhere to repent if they have not heard?


Romans 10:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


What does this mean?

Quote:
Yet you are saying God has not called all men to repentance.

God has commanded all people everywhere to repent and believe.

All people?

Or just the Elect from all people.

That is not why Christ came.

But He gives faith and repentance to those of His special choosing.


Quote:
1 Timothy 4:10

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Again, that is post-salvific, when we have a context of believing unto the saving of the soul.

In view, though, is pre-salvific, and how salvation comes about.

Quote:
Now see a generality: God is the Savior of the whole world. That does not mean all people will be saved, it simply shows that the world has opportunity to be saved by the Savior...God.

You are reading things into the text that are not there. There is no mention of "opportunity to be saved" in the text. There is no potentiality there.

I don't have to read that into it, it's right there:


1 Timothy 4:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11 These things command and teach.


Your denial implies that Paul is in error in saying this.

Quote:
Especially to those that are saved.

The Lord is indeed the Savior of believers. But His Saviorhood is not salvific towards non-believers --the non-elect.

Not what Paul states:

1 Timothy 4:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11 These things command and teach.


It is basic principle that God is the Savior. While I agree He is not Savior salvifically to unbelievers in a post-salvation context, that does not change the fact He is Savior of the entire world.

And again, Paul contrasts post and pre salvation with "specially."

John Owen, the well-known Puritan said that God the Father has a general protecting providence over all --this applies to the non-believer where God the Father is the Preservor. But with respect to the Church He is indeed their Savior.

Irrelevant.

All men benefit from the grace of God, for if nothing else that He does not destroy them immediately.

But He is longsuffering toward us because He is not willing that any should perish.

No way to change this to "He is willing that some perish."

Quote:
And just as God has done in times past, He has given men all men revelation to an extent that they will not have an excuse. That doesn't mean every man everywhere hears the Gospel, but all men everywhere will hear...from God.

I can agree with much of the above --but with an exception to "will hear from God." Nature is a witness to God as the Creator. The conscience of everyone is from God and is a testament from Him. Things like that. But there is no word from God to many in the past, present and future. These "testimonies" are not enough to save anyone.

The purpose of all revelation is that man might know God and that they are to be in obedience to Him. That is why Paul states no man will have an excuse.

Quote:
The one Paul taught shows that God is just and gives opportunity to every man to obey.

That is your tradtion speaking --not God's Word. He is not an equal-opportunity Kind of God.

But He is.

He always provided all men the opportunity for obedience, and expressed His will through revelation.

It is a caricature of God that has God to be a tyrant, a respecter of persons. Many examples of God's love to the world have been given,

It's very clear that you are the one mischaracterizing a plethora of times.

Okay.


God bless.

 

[Iconoclast]

Would this be a bad time to point out that the title is forever fixed" Needs Help. Iconoclast."

Just trying to help, Iconoclast, really.

One day you might understand that better.


God bless.

The title was edited by a mod...it said DC needs help....

would it be okay if I point out you did not address the questions posed to you again?

avoiding what you posted as if you did not post it does not help your case

here it is again;
This is just more scripture you are going to abuse in your next paragraph..i will make it large print for you as I expose your error...so you do not miss it.



because of His love for them[/B]...justifies them because they are obedient to the works of the Law written on their hearts.[/B

So you claim that God justifies gentiles BECAUSE THEY ARE OBEDIENT TO THE LAW........????

HERE IS SOME HELP FOR YOU;

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,

but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,

and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


This you have posted...as posted is the heretical position of a works gospel.

 

[Darrell C]

The title was edited by a mod...it said DC needs help....

would it be okay if I point out you did not address the questions posed to you again?

avoiding what you posted as if you did not post it does not help your case

here it is again;
This is just more scripture you are going to abuse in your next paragraph..i will make it large print for you as I expose your error...so you do not miss it.



because of His love for them[/B]...justifies them because they are obedient to the works of the Law written on their hearts.[/B

So you claim that God justifies gentiles BECAUSE THEY ARE OBEDIENT TO THE LAW........????

HERE IS SOME HELP FOR YOU;

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,

but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,

and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


This you have posted...as posted is the heretical position of a works gospel.

It seems the Moderator that did that is both patient with those who feel they can disregard the rules, as well as a person of extremely honed discernment.

Which was probably gained through Bible Study.

There's two lessons in that, Iconoclast.


God bless.

 

[Iconoclast]

Skipping ahead a bit as you did;


you posted this;

Romans 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


All men means all men.

You won't change the fact that the Gift of God is given unto all men, though only those who believe will be saved.

Have you ever read about Federal Headship?

It is a theological term use to discuss this teaching. Are you familiar with the teaching?

Look here;
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/covenant_illustrated.html

We are in Adam naturally by birth. We are in Christ supernaturally by the New Birth. There is no hint of universalism in this text. (Criswell, W A. Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)

 

[Iconoclast]

It seems the Moderator that did that is both patient with those who feel they can disregard the rules, as well as a person of extremely honed discernment.

Which was probably gained through Bible Study.

There's two lessons in that, Iconoclast.


God bless.

And once again you ignore your false statement:laugh::laugh:

here it is AGAIN;

here it is again;
This is just more scripture you are going to abuse in your next paragraph..i will make it large print for you as I expose your error...so you do not miss it.

because of His love for them[/B]...justifies them because they are obedient to the works of the Law written on their hearts.[/B

So you claim that God justifies gentiles BECAUSE THEY ARE OBEDIENT TO THE LAW........????

HERE IS SOME HELP FOR YOU;

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,

but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,

and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


This you have posted...as posted is the heretical position of a works gospel.

 

[Iconoclast]

in post 59...you were asked for clarification on Zeph 3;

Darrell C


Quote:
Maybe you offer it, but there must be a nagging conflict as you wonder if you are wasting your time...

And yes, the Love of God is deep.
When I present the gospel to sinners there is no conflict at all....and it is never a waste of time because I only present The Love of God for sinners as being found IN Christ.....never, apart from Christ.

It is the wrath of God revealed in Rom1 that the sinner stands under,and unless he has Jesus savingly as the God given propitiation...that is all he will experience......

I see you like Zeph 3...so do I Let's see which part you left out as you accuse me of doing this


Quote:
Zephaniah 3:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Nice...you post a verse speaking of joy and love....but once again...who is the object of that love?........lets look-

5 The just Lord is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame.

6 I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.

7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.

8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.



oh no! Zephaniah should have checked with you first DC....so he could have said.....the love of God is poured out on the whole world

you could have sang that song with Diana Warwick.....what the world needs now is LOVE SWEET LOVE.....lol


No....the object of God's saving love is the ELECT REMNANT ONCE AGAIN...
those in Covenant relationship with God.You see DC......I like all the verses....

11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.

12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord.

13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

15 The Lord hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the Lord, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.

19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.

20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the Lord.

Show where the saving love of God is here DC.......You say it is for everyone...show it here.

 

[Darrell C]

And once again you ignore your false statement:laugh::laugh:

here it is AGAIN;

here it is again;
This is just more scripture you are going to abuse in your next paragraph..i will make it large print for you as I expose your error...so you do not miss it.




HERE IS SOME HELP FOR YOU;

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,

but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,

and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


This you have posted...as posted is the heretical position of a works gospel.

Your quoting messed up the large print. Could you correct that?


God bless.