Featured Revelation 20!

OldRegular · May 17, 2015

According to both Covenant or dispensational premillennialists Revelation 20 depicts the reign of Jesus Christ on this earth for a period of 1000 years. Covenant/historical premillennialists would say that Jesus Christ id reigning with HIS Bride, the Church. Pre-trib-dispensationalists would say that during this 1000 year period the nation of Israel is dominant and renews the practice of bloody offerings in a rebuilt temple. Most pre-trib folks say they believe in progressive revelation. That being the case where in Revelation 20 do we see any indication of the presence of the Nation Israel?

Revelation 20:1-15
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In Verse 5 we read: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those who reign with Jesus Christ are only those who were included in the first resurrection. Covenant premillennialists assert this first resurrection occurs at the time of the Return of Jesus Christ in Power and Glory. Pre-trib folks claim this first resurrection occurs seven years prior to the return of Jesus Christ. Again I ask where in Revelation 20 do we see any indication of the presence of the Nation Israel?

Sapper Woody · May 17, 2015

OR, this whole OP seems to be a straw man to me. I'm pre-trib, pre-mil, and I've never heard someone say anything about Israel being prominent or ruling. I've heard people speculate that she'll be restored as a nation. But never heard anyone say we'll be sacrificing or be led by Israel.

OldRegular · May 17, 2015

Sapper Woody said: ↑

OR, this whole OP seems to be a straw man to me. I'm pre-trib, pre-mil, and I've never heard someone say anything about Israel being prominent or ruling. I've heard people speculate that she'll be restored as a nation. But never heard anyone say we'll be sacrificing or be led by Israel.
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Dr. Thomas Ice is a pre-trib-dispensational Scholar who writes much about pre-trib-dispensational doctrine. See all here: {http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/ttcol.html}

Following is one of his articles:{http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/LiteralSacrificesInTheMillennium.html}

Literal Sacrifices In The Millennium

by Thomas Ice

One of the most commonly presented problems by critics of premillennial literal interpretation is found in association with Ezekiel' s temple vision (Ezekiel 40- 48). These rivals argue that Ezekiel 43:13, 27; 45:15, 17, 20 refers to the sacrifices in a would be future Temple as literally making atonement. This is true! The critics believe this to be a blasphemous contradiction to the finished work of Christ as presented in Hebrews 10. In fact, the "Bible Answer Man"- Hank Hanegraaff- called me heretical on one of his daily call-in programs because I teach that God will restore literal sacrifices in a millennial Temple.[1]

Are these " problems" basis enough to abandon a literal interpretation of the millennial Temple, sacrifices, and our view of future prophetic events all together, as our opponents would desire? What is it about a literal interpretation of millennial sacrifices that one would call another heretical for taking the Bible at face value? I don't think so.

Like any so-called " problem" arising in the mind of an antagonists there are answers and the solution to their objection lies in the very details they believe to be the source of difficulty. In the process of providing an explanation, note the following facts and observations about the Ezekiel passage:

• The purpose for a Temple throughout Scripture has been to establish a location upon earth- which is under the curse of sin- for the presence of God that reveals through its ritual God' s great holiness. God' s plan for Israel, His earthly people, includes a relation to them through a Temple. Currently the church is God' s spiritual Temple made of living stones (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; Ephesians 2:19-22), until the rapture. The millennium will return history to a focus upon Israel and will continue to be a time in which sin will be present upon the earth. Thus, God will include a new Temple, a new priesthood, a new Law, etc., at this future time because He will be present in Israel and still desires to teach that holiness is required to approach Him. This is contrasted with the fact that no Temple will exist in eternity (Revelation 21:22) because God and the Lamb are its temple and there will be no sin in heaven, thus no need for Temple ritual.

• The painstaking detail in Ezekiel 40- 48 is similar to the instruction given to Moses for building of the Tabernacle and then to others for building the Solomonic Temple. Such detail is meaningless unless taken literally as were the Tabernacle and first two Temples. If the detail was intended to be symbolic, the symbols are never explained, as is usually the case with genuine biblical symbolism. Because no textual basis exists for a non-literal interpretation, those attempting such explanations become subjective in their many and various guesses about the meaning of the passage.

• It must be remembered that the Levitical sacrifices of the Mosaic system are said by the Bible to " make atonement" as well (for example, Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, 35, etc.). If these sacrifices in the past actually atoned for the people' s sins, which, of course, they did not, then they would be equally blasphemous in light of Christ' s perfect sacrifice. Hebrews 10:4 tells us, " it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Furthermore, there would have been no need for Christ' s once and for all atoning sacrifice if these past acts did the job.

• The sacrifices of the millennial Temple will not be a return to the Mosaic Law, since that Law has forever been fulfilled and discontinued through Christ (Romans 6:14-15; 7:1-6; 1 Corinthians 9:20-21; 2 Corinthians 3:7-11; Galatians 4:1-7; 5:18; Ephesians 2- 3; Hebrews 7:12; 8:6-7, 13; 10:1-14). Instead it will be a new Law, containing a mixture of Mosaic type new laws under the jurisdiction of the New Covenant (Hebrews 7:12). The millennial system will have Jesus the Messiah physically present instead of the Shechinah glory presence in conjunction with the ark of the covenant; a new Law instead of the Mosaic Law; a new priestly order from the sons of Zadok (Ezekiel 40:46; 43:19; 48:11) instead of the Levites; a new Temple measuring one mile square (Ezekiel 40:48- 41:26) instead of the much smaller Solomonic model.

• Millennial sacrifices are mentioned as a " matter of fact" by the major prophets of the Old Testament as future occurrences. At least four other prophets join Ezekiel in affirming a sacrificial system in a millennial Temple (Isaiah 56:7; 66:20-23; Jeremiah 33:18; Zechariah 14:16-21; Malachi 3:3-4). This further supports the literal interpretation of Ezekiel. Why would five of Israel's prophets mention these sacrifices if they will not take place?

• Many who take a literal interpretation of the Millennial Temple and sacrifices believe that one aspect of these acts will serve as a memorial to Christ' s once-for-all atoning work at His first coming. Yet, critics believe this to be a flawed conclusion. Support for a future memorial aspect can be seen in the fact that our current observation of the Lord' s Supper includes this aspect (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). Under the Mosaic system- which looked ahead- many times various Temple sacrifices are specifically called " memorials" (Exodus 30:16; Leviticus 2:2, 9; 5:12; 6:15; 24:7; Numbers 5:15, 18, 26). Such terminology could in fact be the basis for our current church age understanding of remembering the Lord' s death adopted by Paul. The Mosaic memorial aspect would clearly support viewing future Temple sacrifices in this way, as millennial believers look back upon Christ's sacrificial provision.

• Critics of future millennial sacrifices seem to assume that all sacrifices, past and future, always depict Christ' s final sacrifice for sin. They do not! There were various purposes for sacrifice in the Bible. An overwhelming majority of sacrifices under the Mosaic system were for purification of the priests and objects used in various rites. This is why atonement can be said in the past to be effective, yet still need Christ' s future sacrifice, because many of the sacrifices did atone ceremonially, cleansing participants and objects in Temple ritual. Just as we never finish the task of washing cloths, ceremonial cleansing was an ongoing need. The same is clearly the case in Ezekiel. In Ezekiel 43:20 and 26, the atonement is specifically directed at cleansing the altar in order to make it ritually fit for sacrifice. The only other use of atonement also refer to cleansing objects so that ritual purity may be maintained for proper function of further worship (Ezekiel 45:15, 17, 20).

Dr. Jerry Hullinger has worked through all of the related issues involved in an interpretation of the millennial sacrifices and tells us the following:

. . . a solution that maintains dispensational distinctives, deals honestly with the text of Ezekiel, and in no way demeans the work Christ did on the cross. This study suggests that animal sacrifices during the millennium will serve primarily to remove ceremonial uncleanness and prevent defilement from polluting the temple envisioned by Ezekiel. This will be necessary because the glorious presence of Yahweh will once again be dwelling on earth in the midst of a sinful and unclean people.

Because of God's promise to dwell on earth during the millennium (as stated in the New Covenant), it is necessary that He protect His presence through sacrifice . . . It should further be added that this sacrificial system will be a temporary one in that the millennium (with its partial population of unglorified humanity) will last only one thousand years. During the eternal state all inhabitants of the New Jerusalem will be glorified and will therefore not be a source of contagious impurities to defile the holiness of Yahweh.[2]

Since all the sacrifices of Ezekiel relate to purification of the priests for Temple service, they do not specifically depict or represent Christ' s atoning sacrifice. The presence and purpose of sacrifices neither diminishes the finished work of Christ, nor violates the normal and "literal" interpretation of the prophetic passages. Nothing in Ezekiel 40- 48 conflicts with the death of Christ or New Testament teaching at any point. The supposed contradictions between a literal understanding of Ezekiel and New Testament doctrine evaporate when examined specifically.

The literal interpretation of the Bible and Bible prophecy stands, especially when one considers the fact that the critics cannot tell us, based upon a textual interpretation, what Ezekiel does mean if not taken literally. Instead of becoming an embarrassing problem, the millennial sacrifices issue becomes an argument and demonstration for consistent literal interpretation of Bible prophecy by demonstrating that the details of the text can only be harmonized with the rest of biblical teaching by taking them to mean what they say.

Although there will be millennial sacrifices, the focus of all worship will remain on the person and work of the Savior. The millennial Temple and its ritual will serve as a daily reminder of fallen man' s need before a Holy God and lessons about how this same God lovingly works to remove the obstacle of human sin for those who trust Him.
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OldRegular · May 17, 2015

Look beyond Revelation 20. Where in the New Testament does it teach that the Nation Israel will have a place of prominence in the so-called millennium. In fact the opposite is taught.

revmwc · May 18, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Look beyond Revelation 20. Where in the New Testament does it teach that the Nation Israel will have a place of prominence in the so-called millennium. In fact the opposite is taught.
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Jeremiah 3:14-18;
14 "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers."

The Ark of the covenant will be forgotten in that Kingdom. That is where the blood was poured out from the sacrifices. Guess what in the Kingdom will there will be no sacrifice offered.

But Jesus will be ruling over the Earth and that from Jerusalem.

Notice something else here "for I am married unto you" He divorced Israel in verse 8 it says. But then here he says in Verse 14, "I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:"

He will restore her as His wife, just as the Church is Christ wife. Out of Israel was the Savior born who would rule the world. We see 17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart."

Very clear that God would establish a throne in Jerusalem for the Messiah. Other passages say HE the savior would reign on the Throne of His Father David. clearly God made a promise to Israel, 17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart."

This was believed that it would be literally fulfilled both Nation Israel and Judah, believed in a literal fulfillment.

Darrell C · May 18, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Look beyond Revelation 20. Where in the New Testament does it teach that the Nation Israel will have a place of prominence in the so-called millennium. In fact the opposite is taught.
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Zechariah 14:16-21

King James Version (KJV)

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

God bless.

blessedwife318 · May 18, 2015

Darrell C said: ↑

Zechariah 14:16-21

King James Version (KJV)

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

God bless.
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OK that's a wonderful passage of Scripture but it didn't answer OR question or probably better stated challenge. Here it is again:

OldRegular said: ↑

Look beyond Revelation 20. Where in the NEW Testament does it teach that the Nation Israel will have a place of prominence in the so-called millennium. In fact the opposite is taught. [Caps mine]
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Darrell C · May 18, 2015

blessedwife318 said: ↑

OK that's a wonderful passage of Scripture but it didn't answer OR question or probably better stated challenge. Here it is again:
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Let me ask you a question: does the question represent a seeking after Biblical Truth?

Matthew 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Does that answer the question?

Will you answer another question for me?

Is an attempt to replace Israel justified in nullifying Prophecy that comes from God?

Just curious.

God bless.

Revmitchell · May 18, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Pre-trib-dispensationalists would say that during this 1000 year period the nation of Israel is dominant and renews the practice of bloody offerings in a rebuilt temple.
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If you are going to argue against the position of someone else you need to know what that position is. What you have posted here is completely false. What we believe is that the temple will be rebuilt and the sacrifices reinstated during the tribulation period. Not the 1000 year period.

OldRegular · May 18, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

Jeremiah 3:14-18;
14 "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers."

The Ark of the covenant will be forgotten in that Kingdom. That is where the blood was poured out from the sacrifices. Guess what in the Kingdom will there will be no sacrifice offered.
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You obviously did not read the above post#3 showing that pre-trib-dispensationalism teaches there will be animal sacrifices in the so-called millennial kingdom/

revmwc said: ↑

But Jesus will be ruling over the Earth and that from Jerusalem.
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Just where does it say Jesus Christ will be ruling from Jerusalem. Jesus Christ is ruling over the earth now!

revmwc said: ↑

Notice something else here "for I am married unto you" He divorced Israel in verse 8 it says. But then here he says in Verse 14, "I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:"

He will restore her as His wife, just as the Church is Christ wife.
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So GOD is a bigamist?

revmwc said: ↑

Out of Israel was the Savior born who would rule the world. We see 17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart."
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And the Jews crucified HIM! But Jesus Christ is ruling over the earth now!

revmwc said: ↑

Very clear that God would establish a throne in Jerusalem for the Messiah.
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Where is that stated?

revmwc said: ↑

Other passages say HE the savior would reign on the Throne of His Father David.
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Where is that throne now?

revmwc said: ↑

clearly God made a promise to Israel, 17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart."
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Is GOD talking about National/ethnic Israel or someone else?

revmwc said: ↑

This was believed that it would be literally fulfilled both Nation Israel and Judah, believed in a literal fulfillment.
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How do you know that?

OldRegular · May 18, 2015

Revmitchell said: ↑

If you are going to argue against the position of someone else you need to know what that position is. What you have posted here is completely false. What we believe is that the temple will be rebuilt and the sacrifices reinstated during the tribulation period. Not the 1000 year period.
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Take up your comments with Dr. Ice who said the bloody sacrifices would be offered in the so-called millennial kingdom.

But you really did not answer the question posed in the OP!

OldRegular said: ↑

According to both Covenant or dispensational premillennialists Revelation 20 depicts the reign of Jesus Christ on this earth for a period of 1000 years. Covenant/historical premillennialists would say that Jesus Christ is reigning with HIS Bride, the Church. Pre-trib-dispensationalists would say that during this 1000 year period the nation of Israel is dominant and renews the practice of bloody offerings in a rebuilt temple. Most pre-trib folks say they believe in progressive revelation. That being the case where in Revelation 20 do we see any indication of the presence of the Nation Israel?
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Revmitchell · May 18, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Take up your comments with Dr. Ice who said the bloody sacrifices would be offered in the so-called millennial kingdom.

But you really did not answer the question posed in the OP!
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I do not know nor do I care who he is. Taking the incorrect comments of one person and applying them to everyone is silly. I will take it up with you since you are so willing to continue to misrepresent the falsehood.

I know what I believe. I also know what is being taught even in our Seminaries and it is not what you presented here. In fact what you posted makes no sense. Since your understanding of our position is in error at its core your op is useless.

Darrell C · May 18, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

You obviously did not read the above post#3 showing that pre-trib-dispensationalism teaches there will be animal sacrifices in the so-called millennial kingdom/

Just where does it say Jesus Christ will be ruling from Jerusalem. Jesus Christ is ruling over the earth now!

So GOD is a bigamist?

And the Jews crucified HIM! But Jesus Christ is ruling over the earth now!

Where is that stated?

Where is that throne now?

Is GOD talking about National/ethnic Israel or someone else?

How do you know that?
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Could you just explain how Old Testament Prophecy is nullified because there is no specific verse stating that Israel will again inhabit the land in the New Testament?

Do you have a "spiritual" passage that equates Jerusalem, or voids her presence in the Kingdom (Historical view notwithstanding)?

Personally, as a futurist, I do not take the view that we have to place Christ ruling from a throne in Jerusalem during this time. I think He will still rule from Heaven, and that the Church will, as do the Tribulation Martyrs glorified in the First Resurrection listed in Revelation 20, will minister to those still physical in the world, much like Angels do today.

Here is another non-specific text which is open to interpretation among us...

Luke 22:28-30

King James Version (KJV)

28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

...But I ask you, OR, can you see this as capable of being imposed on today's world? Can you imagine it as being fulfilled in the Eternal State?

Will the disciples sit on thrones judging the Twelve Tribes in the Eternal State? Do they do that now?

We could present a current table of the Lord, and I think there is, but it seems to be more consistent to leave Prophecy in it's place, and to never nullify any part of Scripture. We can't negate those prophecies yet unfulfilled because there is no specific mention in the New Testament.

And I would just point out in Revelation we see four and twenty thrones, not Twelve.

God bless.

revmwc · May 18, 2015

blessedwife318 said: ↑

OK that's a wonderful passage of Scripture but it didn't answer OR question or probably better stated challenge. Here it is again:
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Luke 1:31-33

31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Appears here we see The Son of the Highest seated on Davids throne. Once the Kingdom of 1000 years is ended then Christ sits upon the Throne in New Jerusalem and His Kingdom will never end. Revelation 21 makes that abundantly clear.

Question where was David's throne?

Where is David's Throne today?

Then we see this too, Luke 22:29 "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The Apostles were promised thrones in Christ Kingdom to judge Israel. Jesus said He had a Kingdom coming a Kingdom in which the twelve Tribes of Israel would be ruled over. When you back this up with O.T. prophecy we see that Jesus will rule from the throne of David in Israel. It was a promise given to Mary and Jesus gave that Promise of a Kingdom to His disciples.

So is Heaven Israel?

If as OR states we are in the Kingdom then are the Apostles seated on thrones judging Israel?

OldRegular · May 18, 2015

Revmitchell said: ↑

I do not know nor do I care who he is. Taking the incorrect comments of one person and applying them to everyone is silly. I will take it up with you since you are so willing to continue to misrepresent the falsehood.
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I know your response is the typical pre-trib-dispensational response! Every one of you has unique beliefs when information showing the doctrine of pre-trib-dispenastionalism is presented. I assume you are embarrassed by it; like the "parenthesis" Church.

Revmitchell said: ↑

I know what I believe. I also know what is being taught even in our Seminaries and it is not what you presented here. In fact what you posted makes no sense. Since your understanding of our position is in error at its core your op is useless.
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Thomas Ice
Thomas Ice is the executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center on the campus of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. The research center was founded in 1994 by Tim LaHaye and Ice to research, teach, proclaim, and defend pre-tribulationism. The center currently sponsors prophecy meetings and conferences and provides speakers for the purpose of discussion and lecture on the topic of pre-tribulationism.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Thomas+Ice&ia=about&iax=1
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Do you have the same credentials as Dr. Ice?

Revmitchell · May 18, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

I know your response is the typical pre-trib-dispensational response! Every one of you has unique beliefs when information showing the doctrine of pre-trib-dispenastionalism is presented. I assume you are embarrassed by it; like the "parenthesis" Church.
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Actually I am fairly proud of it.

Do you have the same credentials as Dr. Ice?
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Dr. Pentecost does. I suggest you read him. If Dr. Ice is saying what you say he is saying then he is an idiot.

Darrell C · May 18, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

I know your response is the typical pre-trib-dispensational response! Every one of you has unique beliefs when information showing the doctrine of pre-trib-dispenastionalism is presented. I assume you are embarrassed by it; like the "parenthesis" Church.
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So which is it? There's a particular doctrine? Or it is made up of many unique beliefs?

And how can you present information of the pre-trib dispensationalism if it is so vastly different among believers?

And really...what difference does it make if you never actually have discussions with those various believers? Do you really think that God has commissioned you to spend all of your time entrenched in your own ideas and a campaign against anyone who has those views?

God bless.

Revmitchell · May 18, 2015

Here we go, Dr. Ice posts that the Temple will be built during a "future tribulation period" and cites Daniel 9:24-27; Matthew 24:15-16; Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 11:1-2 and 13:15.

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/the-tribulation-temple

revmwc · May 18, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

According to both Covenant or dispensational premillennialists Revelation 20 depicts the reign of Jesus Christ on this earth for a period of 1000 years. Covenant/historical premillennialists would say that Jesus Christ id reigning with HIS Bride, the Church. Pre-trib-dispensationalists would say that during this 1000 year period the nation of Israel is dominant and renews the practice of bloody offerings in a rebuilt temple. Most pre-trib folks say they believe in progressive revelation. That being the case where in Revelation 20 do we see any indication of the presence of the Nation Israel?

Revelation 20:1-15
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In Verse 5 we read: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those who reign with Jesus Christ are only those who were included in the first resurrection. Covenant premillennialists assert this first resurrection occurs at the time of the Return of Jesus Christ in Power and Glory. Pre-trib folks claim this first resurrection occurs seven years prior to the return of Jesus Christ. Again I ask where in Revelation 20 do we see any indication of the presence of the Nation Israel?
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We this in the New Testament:

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24.

22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

If there is no Millennial Kingdom and if Christ Kingdom is now in Heaven How can He deliver said Kingdom to God, even the Father?

revmwc · May 18, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

According to both Covenant or dispensational premillennialists Revelation 20 depicts the reign of Jesus Christ on this earth for a period of 1000 years. Covenant/historical premillennialists would say that Jesus Christ id reigning with HIS Bride, the Church. Pre-trib-dispensationalists would say that during this 1000 year period the nation of Israel is dominant and renews the practice of bloody offerings in a rebuilt temple. Most pre-trib folks say they believe in progressive revelation. That being the case where in Revelation 20 do we see any indication of the presence of the Nation Israel?

Revelation 20:1-15
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In Verse 5 we read: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those who reign with Jesus Christ are only those who were included in the first resurrection. Covenant premillennialists assert this first resurrection occurs at the time of the Return of Jesus Christ in Power and Glory. Pre-trib folks claim this first resurrection occurs seven years prior to the return of Jesus Christ. Again I ask where in Revelation 20 do we see any indication of the presence of the Nation Israel?
Click to expand...

We know from Chapter 20 verses 7-9,
7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

That from within the Kingdom we have here in Revealtion 20 that satan musters an army which rebels against Christ. This army is said to be as the Sands of the Sea. They attack where Christ is reigning "The Beloved City." That city is not the eternal New Jerusalem.

Becuase it is not upon the Earth yet, Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

It is not on earth yet clearly it was in Heaven at this attack. The Beloved city is not Rome, nor is it Babylon.

What city is it if not Jerusalem?

If it is Jerusalem was that not the city where David's throne was established?

The one that Old Testament Prophet's stated that the Messiah would sit upon?

David's throne was over Israel in Jerusalem?

Therefore the Capital of the Kingdom of which is attacked is the beloved city Jerusalem with Christ seated on the Throne of David, it can be no other!

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