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Featured The Messianic Kingdom?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, May 26, 2015.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    So you believe the Sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the Cross was a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for National Israel?
     
    #161 OldRegular, Jun 1, 2015
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I read his before I consulted Keil and Delitzsch and disagree with him on that. I find Keil and Delitzsch dealing with their knowledge of Hebrew more accurate and of course the Holy Spirit guiding me. You see I don't trust everything written by men in commentaries, the bible is more accurate and that is why I go to the interlinear before a commentary, then a dictionary for the word and then commentaries must align with the interlinear and meaning of words and textual accuracy before I take everything they say as accurate. So I take bits and pieces of commentaries and let the Spirit guide me to the accuracy of what is stated.
     
    #162 revmwc, Jun 1, 2015
  3. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Nope I believe God's plan for mankind's salvation was promised to Adam and Eve but planned in eternity past because God knew man would fall. He also knew Israel would reject the Messiah before He ever established her as a nation, before He made the promise of the land and the Kingdom even before He called Abraham out of fire and destruction. God knew which of Isaac's sons would chose for him and therefore called Jacob before they were born. Because God is Omniscient and God made the plan for mankind's salvation way before the earth was created.
     
    #163 revmwc, Jun 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2015
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Well I suspect it is because Matthew Henry debunks the entire dispensational doctrine with his explanation of Daniels prophecy.
     
    #164 OldRegular, Jun 1, 2015
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It has nothing to do with dispensationalism. It has to do with the words of Scripture. Perhaps you should understand this one important truth:
    Words have meanings.

    "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week."
    Of course the authors of the CEV knew this didn't refer to Christ and therefore translated it:
    (CEV) For one week this foreigner will make a firm agreement with many people, and halfway through this week,
    --But you refuse to exegete these verses and hang on blindly to this notion that the "he" must refer to Christ.

    So, going by your flawed interpretation:
    1. You accuse Christ of making a covenant for one week in duration.
    Show where this covenant took place. You can't. There is no 7-year covenant made by Christ in Scripture. No such thing was ever done.
    2. To add injury to insult you make Christ a sinner stating that Christ broke his own covenant by not keeping it. He broke it in the midst of the seven years and caused the sacrifices and offerings to cease.
    In your view he is a liar and a truce-breaker (the blasphemy be yours).
    It is your view. Words do have meanings.
    He made a firm covenant for one week of seven years and then broke it!
    True or false!

    This has nothing to do with dispensationalism. It has to do with what does the text say?
     
    #165 DHK, Jun 1, 2015
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    All the promises were and are fulfilled In Jesus Christ.

    Galatians 3:26-29
    26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    But you dispensationalists want to make the sacrifice of Jesus Christ of no effect through the false doctrine of the earthly kingdom with renewed blood sacrifices! Jesus Christ said:

    John 18:36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
     
    #166 OldRegular, Jun 1, 2015
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I have six things to say to you:

    1. You seriously abuse your role as a moderator and most participants on this BB know it!

    2. Your interpretation has everything to do with the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism. That false doctrine dictates that you interpret Scripture, not as the Holy Spirit leads but as the pre-trib-doctrine dictates. The fact that you accept the paraphrase of the CEV as the Word of GOD proves this is true.

    3. Pre-trib-dispensationalism, fathered by John Nelson Darby who claimed special revelation, and popularized in this country by the likes of Cyrus I. Scofield, is a totally false doctrine that makes the Church for which my Savior died a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for the offspring of HIS murderers, national Israel. Therefore, the death of Jesus Christ becomes a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for the offspring those who conspired with pagan Rome to murder HIM!

    4. Because of Point #3 it seems that many pre-trib-dispensationalists believe that the offspring of the murderers of Jesus Christ have a higher worth in the eyes of GOD than do those for whom Jesus Christ suffered betrayal and crucifixion.

    5. Words do have meaning. That is one reason you should not tout the CEV whose paraphrase of Daniel 9:27 is blasphemous. Furthermore, when you distort the Word of GOD to serve a false doctrine like pre-trib-dispensationalism you are no better than the Roman Catholics from which you come.

    6. All I can say is GOD have mercy on those so deluded by this false doctrine of pre-trib-dispensationalism.
     
    #167 OldRegular, Jun 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2015
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Really, OR. This is really a sad reply. I have had nothing but the text of scripture in front of me.
    I don't accept the CEV as an accurate translation any more than I do the Living Bible. It is a paraphrase, not a translation. Sometimes it takes a paraphrase to wade through some archaic language that is blinding one's eyes to the truth of that which it is written. It opened your eyes and clearly showed you that what they had written was not what you believed. So, admit it. Something is wrong.

    Secondly, it has nothing to do with any pre-trib doctrine at this point. It simply has to do with the exegesis of the text. One cannot read into a text that which is not there.
    If Christ made a covenant for one week, then where is that covenant in the NT and where are the details.
    If he broke it, why would he sin in so doing?
    Details are important here.
    1. I am not talking about pre-trib doctrines.
    2. I never mentioned Darby, but that is your M.O. and your default when you have no other avenue of attack.
    3. I never mentioned Scofield either.
    4. I already told you, I don't believe in a parenthesis church, and that is not what this is about.
    5. Therefore all of your above are all accounted for and answered. Basically they are just red herrings, not to deal with the actual text of Daniel 9.
    Christ died for all. He loves all equally the same. There is no one in this world whom Christ would not receive. He is not a "respector of persons."
    But when I read Calvinistic works God does become a respecter of persons, has two kinds of loves, and is forced to love the elect and hate the non-elect. But that is not the kind of God that I serve.
    It is a paraphrase as I have emphasized. No paraphrase is accurate.
    This paraphrase has translated the verse contrary to your theology, but translated it correctly. Why? Because the "he" is a foreigner and not Christ (vs.27).
    However, you still won't exegete the passage as I have done for you.
    Take the passage and show how you get Christ confirming one week of seven years and at the same time breaking it in the middle?
    Explain the other verses within their contexts.
    This has nothing to do with pre-trib dispensationalism, but with honest exegesis.
    God have mercy on those who are afraid to approach the Word with an honest and open mind.

    Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
     
    #168 DHK, Jun 1, 2015
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    #169 Iconoclast, Jun 1, 2015
  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    70 weeks actually means 490 years?
    The hour is coming when all in the graves...hour means a short time period?


    ====1,000 years mean an literal 1,000 years? :confused:
     
    #170 SovereignGrace, Jun 2, 2015
  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I asked these pertinent questions and the thread came to a complete stop?
     
    #171 SovereignGrace, Jun 3, 2015
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Your questions did not bring the discussion to a stop. It was my refusal to engage in further verbal abuse from the moderator, DHK. I will respond to your post.

    That 70 weeks, or seventy sevens is meant to be 490 years is, I believe, based on the history of the return of the Jews from captivity and subsequent history. Though there is much disagreement over the actual beginning and end of the 490 years I believe there is substantial agreement among scholars that the seventy sevens means 490 years. Philip Mauro in his book The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation writes {Chapter 3}:

    You correctly state that an hour is a very short period of ti,e. I assume that you have reference to John 5:28, 29:

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    If we are to understand Scripture we must recognize that the language of Scripture includes figures of speech such as parables, hyperbole, simile, metaphor, symbolism, and allegories as well as language that is plain and straightforward in the truth it presents. Then there are Scripture written in apocalyptic language as is much of the Book of Revelation, Ezekiel, and Daniel. It is obvious given the context in which the above Scripture is presented that Jesus Christ is teaching a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead, and obviously those still living, at a specific time in history as we know it.

    A proper interpretation of the Book of Revelation requires an understanding of the literary form called apocalyptic literature? The word apocalyptic comes from apocalypse and is used to describe one literary form used in the book of Revelation. Ray Frank Robbins, a former professor at the New Orleans Baptist Seminary, describes apocalyptic literature, as follows[Revelation: Three Viewpoints, G. R. Beasley-Murray, Herschel H. Hobbs, Ray Frank Robbins.] :

    Among other things Revelation is a book of numbers. We see frequent use of the number seven {7}, twelve {12}, 2 X12 or twenty four {24}, 0ne thousand {1000}, 12X1000 or 12,000, 12X12X1000 or 144,000. It is obvious then that all the numbers in Revelation, given the language used in the book that applying a strict literal value to these numbers is foolish, certainly it is unBiblical.

    My understanding of the 1000 years you mention is that they represent the time between the ascension of Jesus Christ and His return in power and Glory to bring history/time to a close, with the resurrection of John 5:28, 29, followed by the White Throne Judgment, Satan cast into the lake of fire, and the New Heavens and Earth where GOD will dwell with His Church throughout Eternity.
     
    #172 OldRegular, Jun 3, 2015
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    In Daniel's prophecy of the 490 tears until Messiah he introduces with the following Scripture"

    Daniel 9:24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    In the above we see six different events that are to be finished during that period of time.

    1. to finish the transgression.
    2. to make an end of sins
    3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
    4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
    5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
    6. to anoint a most holy place.

    An unnamed moderator has made the following assertion:
    His point #1 {All these events have to do with the Jewish people.} is patently false. All these events were fulfilled with the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago. Furthermore, only event #1 above iOS limited to the jewish people.

    His point #2 {All these events will take place within that 70th week.} is correct even though he is not aware of that truth. They were again fulfilled through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago which occurred during Daniel's 70th week.

    The unnamed moderator thinks the 70th week is still out there in the unknown future.

    I asked the unnamed moderator the following questions:

    His response:
    Yet above he said the six events of Daniel 9:24 would be answered in the 70th week! And since when on this BB has insistence been that all posts must be germane to the OP?:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


    In my post #116 I showed through Scripture that each of the above 6 promises were fulfilled with the death of Jesus Christ. Needless to say that post has been ignored by the unnamed moderator. He has refused to answer the most basic of questions saying they are not germane to the OP. Since when has that caused any pause on this BB. I repeat my post #116 in the following post!
     
    #173 OldRegular, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2015
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Needless to say the unnamed moderator has failed to refute even one of the above.

    In posts to follow I intend to present the thoughts of an early refugee from the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism, Philip Mauro.
     
    #174 OldRegular, Jun 3, 2015
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :thumbsup::laugh::thumbsup::wavey:

    He cannot refute this at all. Only invent strawmen that no one posted and attack the strawman....he can do that.!
     
    #175 Iconoclast, Jun 3, 2015
  16. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    They were refuted you just disagree with the answers.
     
    #176 revmwc, Jun 3, 2015
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Dan 9:26,27 ...and the people of the prince that shall come...
    And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Before attempting any post, I would appreciate an answer to this one question which has gone unanswered for a long time.
    If the "he" (as you say), refers to "Christ," then where in the NT does Christ confirm a covenant for seven years and then in the middle of that seven week period break his own promise? How is that even possible?
     
    #177 DHK, Jun 3, 2015
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Then show where. Words do have meaning you know!
     
    #178 OldRegular, Jun 3, 2015
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Comments on Daniel 9:24 by an early refugee from the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism, Philip Mauro as presented in THE SEVENTY WEEKS AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION

     
    #179 OldRegular, Jun 3, 2015
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Comments on Daniel 9:24 by an early refugee from the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism, Philip Mauro as presented in THE SEVENTY WEEKS AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION

     
    #180 OldRegular, Jun 3, 2015
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