OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So you believe the Sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the Cross was a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for National Israel?
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The Messianic Kingdom?
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So you believe the Sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the Cross was a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for National Israel?
I read his before I consulted Keil and Delitzsch and disagree with him on that. I find Keil and Delitzsch dealing with their knowledge of Hebrew more accurate and of course the Holy Spirit guiding me. You see I don't trust everything written by men in commentaries, the bible is more accurate and that is why I go to the interlinear before a commentary, then a dictionary for the word and then commentaries must align with the interlinear and meaning of words and textual accuracy before I take everything they say as accurate. So I take bits and pieces of commentaries and let the Spirit guide me to the accuracy of what is stated.
Nope I believe God's plan for mankind's salvation was promised to Adam and Eve but planned in eternity past because God knew man would fall. He also knew Israel would reject the Messiah before He ever established her as a nation, before He made the promise of the land and the Kingdom even before He called Abraham out of fire and destruction. God knew which of Isaac's sons would chose for him and therefore called Jacob before they were born. Because God is Omniscient and God made the plan for mankind's salvation way before the earth was created.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Well I suspect it is because Matthew Henry debunks the entire dispensational doctrine with his explanation of Daniels prophecy.
It has nothing to do with dispensationalism. It has to do with the words of Scripture. Perhaps you should understand this one important truth:
Words have meanings.
"He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week."
Of course the authors of the CEV knew this didn't refer to Christ and therefore translated it:
(CEV) For one week this foreigner will make a firm agreement with many people, and halfway through this week,
--But you refuse to exegete these verses and hang on blindly to this notion that the "he" must refer to Christ.
So, going by your flawed interpretation:
1. You accuse Christ of making a covenant for one week in duration.
Show where this covenant took place. You can't. There is no 7-year covenant made by Christ in Scripture. No such thing was ever done.
2. To add injury to insult you make Christ a sinner stating that Christ broke his own covenant by not keeping it. He broke it in the midst of the seven years and caused the sacrifices and offerings to cease.
In your view he is a liar and a truce-breaker (the blasphemy be yours).
It is your view. Words do have meanings.
He made a firm covenant for one week of seven years and then broke it!
True or false!
This has nothing to do with dispensationalism. It has to do with what does the text say?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
All the promises were and are fulfilled In Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3:26-29
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
But you dispensationalists want to make the sacrifice of Jesus Christ of no effect through the false doctrine of the earthly kingdom with renewed blood sacrifices! Jesus Christ said:
John 18:36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have six things to say to you:
1. You seriously abuse your role as a moderator and most participants on this BB know it!
2. Your interpretation has everything to do with the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism. That false doctrine dictates that you interpret Scripture, not as the Holy Spirit leads but as the pre-trib-doctrine dictates. The fact that you accept the paraphrase of the CEV as the Word of GOD proves this is true.
3. Pre-trib-dispensationalism, fathered by John Nelson Darby who claimed special revelation, and popularized in this country by the likes of Cyrus I. Scofield, is a totally false doctrine that makes the Church for which my Savior died a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for the offspring of HIS murderers, national Israel. Therefore, the death of Jesus Christ becomes a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for the offspring those who conspired with pagan Rome to murder HIM!
4. Because of Point #3 it seems that many pre-trib-dispensationalists believe that the offspring of the murderers of Jesus Christ have a higher worth in the eyes of GOD than do those for whom Jesus Christ suffered betrayal and crucifixion.
5. Words do have meaning. That is one reason you should not tout the CEV whose paraphrase of Daniel 9:27 is blasphemous. Furthermore, when you distort the Word of GOD to serve a false doctrine like pre-trib-dispensationalism you are no better than the Roman Catholics from which you come.
6. All I can say is GOD have mercy on those so deluded by this false doctrine of pre-trib-dispensationalism.
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Really, OR. This is really a sad reply. I have had nothing but the text of scripture in front of me.
I don't accept the CEV as an accurate translation any more than I do the Living Bible. It is a paraphrase, not a translation. Sometimes it takes a paraphrase to wade through some archaic language that is blinding one's eyes to the truth of that which it is written. It opened your eyes and clearly showed you that what they had written was not what you believed. So, admit it. Something is wrong.
Secondly, it has nothing to do with any pre-trib doctrine at this point. It simply has to do with the exegesis of the text. One cannot read into a text that which is not there.
If Christ made a covenant for one week, then where is that covenant in the NT and where are the details.
If he broke it, why would he sin in so doing?
Details are important here.
1. I am not talking about pre-trib doctrines.
2. I never mentioned Darby, but that is your M.O. and your default when you have no other avenue of attack.
3. I never mentioned Scofield either.
4. I already told you, I don't believe in a parenthesis church, and that is not what this is about.
5. Therefore all of your above are all accounted for and answered. Basically they are just red herrings, not to deal with the actual text of Daniel 9.
Christ died for all. He loves all equally the same. There is no one in this world whom Christ would not receive. He is not a "respector of persons."
But when I read Calvinistic works God does become a respecter of persons, has two kinds of loves, and is forced to love the elect and hate the non-elect. But that is not the kind of God that I serve.
It is a paraphrase as I have emphasized. No paraphrase is accurate.
This paraphrase has translated the verse contrary to your theology, but translated it correctly. Why? Because the "he" is a foreigner and not Christ (vs.27).
However, you still won't exegete the passage as I have done for you.
Take the passage and show how you get Christ confirming one week of seven years and at the same time breaking it in the middle?
Explain the other verses within their contexts.
This has nothing to do with pre-trib dispensationalism, but with honest exegesis.
God have mercy on those who are afraid to approach the Word with an honest and open mind.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
70 weeks actually means 490 years?
The hour is coming when all in the graves...hour means a short time period?
====1,000 years mean an literal 1,000 years?
The hour is coming when all in the graves...hour means a short time period?
====1,000 years mean an literal 1,000 years?
70 weeks actually means 490 years?
The hour is coming when all in the graves...hour means a short time period?
====1,000 years mean an literal 1,000 years?
I asked these pertinent questions and the thread came to a complete stop?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Your questions did not bring the discussion to a stop. It was my refusal to engage in further verbal abuse from the moderator, DHK. I will respond to your post.
70 weeks actually means 490 years?
That 70 weeks, or seventy sevens is meant to be 490 years is, I believe, based on the history of the return of the Jews from captivity and subsequent history. Though there is much disagreement over the actual beginning and end of the 490 years I believe there is substantial agreement among scholars that the seventy sevens means 490 years. Philip Mauro in his book The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation writes {Chapter 3}:
The hour is coming when all in the graves...hour means a short time period?
You correctly state that an hour is a very short period of ti,e. I assume that you have reference to John 5:28, 29:
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
If we are to understand Scripture we must recognize that the language of Scripture includes figures of speech such as parables, hyperbole, simile, metaphor, symbolism, and allegories as well as language that is plain and straightforward in the truth it presents. Then there are Scripture written in apocalyptic language as is much of the Book of Revelation, Ezekiel, and Daniel. It is obvious given the context in which the above Scripture is presented that Jesus Christ is teaching a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead, and obviously those still living, at a specific time in history as we know it.
====1,000 years mean an literal 1,000 years?
A proper interpretation of the Book of Revelation requires an understanding of the literary form called apocalyptic literature? The word apocalyptic comes from apocalypse and is used to describe one literary form used in the book of Revelation. Ray Frank Robbins, a former professor at the New Orleans Baptist Seminary, describes apocalyptic literature, as follows[Revelation: Three Viewpoints, G. R. Beasley-Murray, Herschel H. Hobbs, Ray Frank Robbins.] :
Among other things Revelation is a book of numbers. We see frequent use of the number seven {7}, twelve {12}, 2 X12 or twenty four {24}, 0ne thousand {1000}, 12X1000 or 12,000, 12X12X1000 or 144,000. It is obvious then that all the numbers in Revelation, given the language used in the book that applying a strict literal value to these numbers is foolish, certainly it is unBiblical.
My understanding of the 1000 years you mention is that they represent the time between the ascension of Jesus Christ and His return in power and Glory to bring history/time to a close, with the resurrection of John 5:28, 29, followed by the White Throne Judgment, Satan cast into the lake of fire, and the New Heavens and Earth where GOD will dwell with His Church throughout Eternity.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
In Daniel's prophecy of the 490 tears until Messiah he introduces with the following Scripture"
Daniel 9:24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
In the above we see six different events that are to be finished during that period of time.
1. to finish the transgression.
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
6. to anoint a most holy place.
An unnamed moderator has made the following assertion:
His point #1 {All these events have to do with the Jewish people.} is patently false. All these events were fulfilled with the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago. Furthermore, only event #1 above iOS limited to the jewish people.
His point #2 {All these events will take place within that 70th week.} is correct even though he is not aware of that truth. They were again fulfilled through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago which occurred during Daniel's 70th week.
The unnamed moderator thinks the 70th week is still out there in the unknown future.
I asked the unnamed moderator the following questions:
His response:
Yet above he said the six events of Daniel 9:24 would be answered in the 70th week! And since when on this BB has insistence been that all posts must be germane to the OP?:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
In my post #116 I showed through Scripture that each of the above 6 promises were fulfilled with the death of Jesus Christ. Needless to say that post has been ignored by the unnamed moderator. He has refused to answer the most basic of questions saying they are not germane to the OP. Since when has that caused any pause on this BB. I repeat my post #116 in the following post!
Daniel 9:24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
In the above we see six different events that are to be finished during that period of time.
1. to finish the transgression.
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
6. to anoint a most holy place.
An unnamed moderator has made the following assertion:
His point #1 {All these events have to do with the Jewish people.} is patently false. All these events were fulfilled with the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago. Furthermore, only event #1 above iOS limited to the jewish people.
His point #2 {All these events will take place within that 70th week.} is correct even though he is not aware of that truth. They were again fulfilled through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago which occurred during Daniel's 70th week.
The unnamed moderator thinks the 70th week is still out there in the unknown future.
I asked the unnamed moderator the following questions:
His response:
Yet above he said the six events of Daniel 9:24 would be answered in the 70th week! And since when on this BB has insistence been that all posts must be germane to the OP?:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
In my post #116 I showed through Scripture that each of the above 6 promises were fulfilled with the death of Jesus Christ. Needless to say that post has been ignored by the unnamed moderator. He has refused to answer the most basic of questions saying they are not germane to the OP. Since when has that caused any pause on this BB. I repeat my post #116 in the following post!
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If Jesus Christ did not fulfill the promises of Daniel 24 we are all still lost and in our sins.
In Daniel 24 we read:
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
There are six promises in this Scripture. The first three of these promises indicate things to be removed; the last three indicate things to be attained. Note that all six promises are to be accomplished during the seventy weeks. It is instructive to list these promises and then determine which have been fulfilled.
1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
6. to anoint the most Holy.
There are several verses in the New testament that show that these promises were fulfilled through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the Cross.
1. to finish the transgression
John 11:46-50, 53
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
Acts 2:22-24
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
The Jews "finished" their transgression when they Crucified Christ. That was their crowning offense. The Enormity of the crime of condemning Christ to death on the cross cannot be surpassed, and therefore it "finished" their Transgression.
2. to make an end of sins
Hebrews 10:12-14, KJV
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Galatians 1:4, KJV
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
Titus 2:14, KJV
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Hebrews 2:17, KJV
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
Now one could argue that everlasting righteousness was not accomplished during or after the First Advent of Jesus Christ, even among those who become His disciples. Neither can one argue that such righteousness exists during the “so-called” earthly millennial reign since even proponents of that earthly millennial reign contend that sin is merely restrained by the iron hand of Jesus Christ to spring forth into full bloom again when Satan is released from his chains. [Also one thousand years is not everlasting.] What, therefore is meant by ‘everlasting righteousness’? The most logical explanation is that this righteousness is the imputed righteousness bestowed on the believer because of his faith in Jesus Christ. This imputed righteousness is an everlasting righteousness.
Romans 3:22, KJV
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 5:1, KJV
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Corinthians 5:21, KJV
21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
Matthew Henry, B. H. Carroll, E. J. Young, and H. C. Leupold are in general agreement that this refers to a fulfillment and completion of Old Testament prophecy. By the completion of His mission Jesus Christ confirmed the truth of Old Testament prophecy. Paul in his letter to the Hebrews tells us that in Jesus Christ we have the fullest revelation of God:
Hebrews 1:1-4, KJV
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
With the completion of the New Testament, the final revelation of Jesus Christ as shown to the Apostle John, vision and prophecy are brought to an end, that is, sealed.
6. anoint the most Holy.
O. T. Allis in Prophecy and the Church indicates this may mean the entrance of Jesus Christ into Heaven itself when by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [Hebrews 9:12] for all His elect. Henry, Leupold, and Young believe that this refers to the anointing of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. B. H. Carroll believes that “the most Holy” refers to the Church that Jesus Christ Himself established. The Church as used in this context refers to the Church universal, the entire body of ‘true believers’ or Saints. Carroll’s interpretation seems to be preferable, however, the Church can only be referred to as ‘most Holy’ only because She is sanctified by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 10:10, 14, KJV
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
We read further about the Church:
2 Corinthians 11:2, KJV
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.
Ephesians 2:19-22, KJV
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
1 Peter 2:9, KJV
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Hebrews 12:18-24, KJV
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Needless to say the unnamed moderator has failed to refute even one of the above.
In posts to follow I intend to present the thoughts of an early refugee from the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism, Philip Mauro.
:thumbsup::laugh::thumbsup::wavey:
He cannot refute this at all. Only invent strawmen that no one posted and attack the strawman....he can do that.!
They were refuted you just disagree with the answers.
Dan 9:26,27 ...and the people of the prince that shall come...
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Before attempting any post, I would appreciate an answer to this one question which has gone unanswered for a long time.
If the "he" (as you say), refers to "Christ," then where in the NT does Christ confirm a covenant for seven years and then in the middle of that seven week period break his own promise? How is that even possible?
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Before attempting any post, I would appreciate an answer to this one question which has gone unanswered for a long time.
If the "he" (as you say), refers to "Christ," then where in the NT does Christ confirm a covenant for seven years and then in the middle of that seven week period break his own promise? How is that even possible?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Then show where. Words do have meaning you know!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Comments on Daniel 9:24 by an early refugee from the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism, Philip Mauro as presented in THE SEVENTY WEEKS AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Comments on Daniel 9:24 by an early refugee from the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism, Philip Mauro as presented in THE SEVENTY WEEKS AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION
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