The Death of Jesus Christ

[OldRegular]

In another thread {The Messianic Kingdom?} I posed the following questions:

Originally Posted by OldRegular

1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?

2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your "faith in Jesus Christ"?

3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?

Needless to say I have not yet gotten an answer!

It is my belief that Jesus Christ, through HIS death on the Cross, accomplished or fulfilled all six of the promises of Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
6. to anoint the most Holy.

So what did Jesus Christ accomplish on the Cross. Various dispensational scholars insist the Church is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel. Does that mean the Cross is just a "parenthesis" in God's program for national Israel or is the substitutionary atonement of the Jesus Christ on the Cross a once for all time Sacrifice. Is the writer of the Book of Hebrews correct when he said:

Hebrews 1:3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 10:12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

[Crabtownboy]

Mistaken post ... was not for this thread.

 

[JonC]

1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?
2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your “faith in Jesus Christ”?
3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?


OldRegular,

Please expound on exactly what you mean by imputed righteousness. I can think of a couple of ways that this has been defined, and my answer hinges on the definition used.

My definition is that it is Christ’s own righteousness (right standing with God) within which we are cloaked. Imputed righteousness then would be everlasting because it is positional (in Christ). So if this is the case, then I would answer “yes” to #2 and #3.

Some believe this to be a moral righteousness, based on Christ’s perfect obedience, that is actually transferred to the saved. Imputed righteousness then would be a quality of moral righteousness that the believer actually holds because of Christ’s work on the Cross. If this is the definition you would use then I would answer “no” to #2 (and #3 would not be applicable).

How do you define imputed righteousness?

 

[kyredneck]

....How do you define imputed righteousness?

How about an example? After all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

 

[OldRegular]

Jon

First your failure to use the quote feature may give the wrong impression to some who may not read the OP. So forgive me for making the questions more clesr:

In another thread {The Messianic Kingdom?} I posed the following questions:

Originally Posted by OldRegular

1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?

2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your "faith in Jesus Christ"?

3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?

Needless to say I have not yet gotten an answer!

1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?
2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your “faith in Jesus Christ”?
3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?


OldRegular,

Please expound on exactly what you mean by imputed righteousness. I can think of a couple of ways that this has been defined, and my answer hinges on the definition used.

My definition is that it is Christ’s own righteousness (right standing with God) within which we are cloaked. Imputed righteousness then would be everlasting because it is positional (in Christ). So if this is the case, then I would answer “yes” to #2 and #3.

I agree. The answer to 2 & 3 is yes. I might word your understanding of imputed righteousness a little different. Frankly I had never thought of the use of "cloaked" but I believe it is entirely appropriate.

I have always liked the way Romans 3:23-28 explains how GOD can be just {righteous} and justify the sinner {impute righteousness}.

Some believe this to be a moral righteousness, based on Christ’s perfect obedience, that is actually transferred to the saved. Imputed righteousness then would be a quality of moral righteousness that the believer actually holds because of Christ’s work on the Cross. If this is the definition you would use then I would answer “no” to #2 (and #3 would not be applicable).

I think you have said it well.

How do you define imputed righteousness?

In many respects that is tough for me to nail down. However, the best I can do is say that the true believer is "declared" righteous because of what Jesus Christ did both during HIS life and His death on the Cross. We are not made righteous but we are declared to be righteous therefore meeting the demands of GOD as indicated in Romans 3:23-28. Perhaps someone who has a better answer will jump in here.

One additional point. Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished all that was necessary for our salvation!

 

[JonC]

How about an example? After all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

Good example.....please explain :smilewinkgrin:. I do see how this shows that "imputed righteousness" cannot be a moral righteousness based on Christ's obedience of the Law. Many disagreements are disagreements in definition. Will you provide a more precise definition?

 

[OldRegular]

How about an example? After all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

I like Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. {Galatians 3:6} better but I won't quibble. I will say this. There is so much in Scripture that is worthwhile to know but seems like the more we learn the more there is to learn.

 

[kyredneck]

Excerpt from A Set of Old School Primitive Baptist Articles of Faith

"6. We believe that sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the imputed righteousness of Christ.

2 Cor 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Rom 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."


"Since regeneration imparts eternal life (Eph 2:1) and precedes the exercise of faith in time (I John 5:1) it follows that faith arrives far too late to ever account for our justification before the throne of God, which occurred in covenant before the foundation of the world, commercially at Calvary, but only experimentally by faith. Faith lays hold of the preexisting truth of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to his people and is in no sense a causative instrument in man's justification before God. We are justified before the throne of God by the imputation of Christ's righteousness alone. When the bible speaks of our justification by faith it is referring to the evidentiary awareness of one's justification in our experience which is manifest by faith. Faith does not create justification, it receives the truth of a justification that was wrought entirely by Christ alone."
http://theearstohear.blogspot.com/2012/12/commentary-on-primitive-baptist.html

 

[JonC]

Jon

First your failure to use the quote feature may give the wrong impression to some who may not read the OP. So forgive me for making the questions more [clear]:!

Thank you. When I tried to quote I couldn’t capture that statement (perhaps I needed to go to the original source). Anyway...it was not for lack of effort.

In many respects that is tough for me to nail down. However, the best I can do is say that the true believer is "declared" righteous because of what Jesus Christ did both during HIS life and His death on the Cross. We are not made righteous but we are declared to be righteous therefore meeting the demands of GOD as indicated in Romans 3:23-28.

I think that part of the difficulty is systemic when we take a doctrine such as Salvation, or even a more precise doctrine such as the Atonement, and break it down into micro-doctrines. It is an important task, but sometimes it becomes difficult to see the forest for the tees. Each part is integral to the whole and is, in a way, dependent on the whole to make complete sense. Your comment here:

Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished all that was necessary for our salvation!

is very well stated.

 

[OldRegular]

Thank you. When I tried to quote I couldn’t capture that statement (perhaps I needed to go to the original source). Anyway...it was not for lack of effort.

Actually I wasn't thinking. Just using the quote feature will not copy quotes. They must be cut and pasted!

I think that part of the difficulty is systemic when we take a doctrine such as Salvation, or even a more precise doctrine such as the Atonement, and break it down into micro-doctrines. It is an important task, but sometimes it becomes difficult to see the forest for the tees. Each part is integral to the whole and is, in a way, dependent on the whole to make complete sense.

There are a number of things that happen at Salvation. I call them the Gems of Salvation. Understanding the different aspects can sometimes get difficult, but the more we understand the more we should appreciate what Jesus Christ accomplished on the Cross. Martyn Lloyd-Jones has an excellent discussion on these different aspects of Salvation in his Book "God the Holy Spirit"!

Your comment here:
is very well stated.

Thanks much!

 

[JamesL]

Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished all that was necessary for our salvation!

Depends on what you view as Salvation, and/or if Jesus' death should be contextualized more broadly. Here's what I mean...

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions

2Tim 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory

 

[OldRegular]

Depends on what you view as Salvation, and/or if Jesus' death should be contextualized more broadly. Here's what I mean...

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions

2Tim 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory

Salvation means we are reconciled to GOD and includes:

1. Regeneration or the New Birth

2. Gift of Faith

3. Repentance

4. Conversion

5. Pardon

6. Justification

7. Union with Jesus Christ

8. Adoption as Children of God

9. Sanctification

10. Eternal Security of the Believer {Perseverance of the Saints}

11. Glorification

 

[OldRegular]

Getting back to the OP:

In another thread {The Messianic Kingdom?} I posed the following questions:

Originally Posted by OldRegular

1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?

2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your "faith in Jesus Christ"?

3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?

Needless to say I have not yet gotten an answer!

It is my belief that Jesus Christ, through HIS death on the Cross, accomplished or fulfilled all six of the promises of Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
6. to anoint the most Holy.

So what did Jesus Christ accomplish on the Cross. Various dispensational scholars insist the Church is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel. Does that mean the Cross is just a "parenthesis" in God's program for national Israel or is the substitutionary atonement of the Jesus Christ on the Cross a once for all time Sacrifice. Is the writer of the Book of Hebrews correct when he said:

Hebrews 1:3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 10:12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

[SovereignGrace]

Not to hijack your thread, but I don't get this:


70 weeks is really 490 years, seeing that 1 week equals 7 years.
The hour is coming, when hour means a 'short time period'.
1,000 years means a literal 1,000 years stated in Revelation.


This is where are the confusions concerning eschatology stem from.

 

[OldRegular]

Not to hijack your thread, but I don't get this:


70 weeks is really 490 years, seeing that 1 week equals 7 years.
The hour is coming, when hour means a 'short time period'.
1,000 years means a literal 1,000 years stated in Revelation.


This is where are the confusions concerning eschatology stem from.

You are quite correct. I have responded to your question in the thread Messianic Kingdom.

 

[revmwc]

In another thread {The Messianic Kingdom?} I posed the following questions:



Needless to say I have not yet gotten an answer!

It is my belief that Jesus Christ, through HIS death on the Cross, accomplished or fulfilled all six of the promises of Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
6. to anoint the most Holy.

So what did Jesus Christ accomplish on the Cross. Various dispensational scholars insist the Church is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel. Does that mean the Cross is just a "parenthesis" in God's program for national Israel or is the substitutionary atonement of the Jesus Christ on the Cross a once for all time Sacrifice. Is the writer of the Book of Hebrews correct when he said:

Hebrews 1:3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 10:12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

The question was answered several times over yet you continued to ask, and BTW not answer his questions either.

The original statement in the post was have these occurred for Israel,

to finish the transgression
to make an end of sins
to make reconciliation for iniquity.
to bring in everlasting righteousness.to seal up the vision and prophecy.
to anoint the most Holy.


These came in a question from this verse Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."


Notice the verse says these things would come after 70 weeks upon Daniel's people, so have these occurred upon Daniels' people and the Nation Israel in the Holy City?

 

[DHK]

In another thread {The Messianic Kingdom?} I posed the following questions:

1. Are you saying the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross accomplished NOTHING?

2. Was righteousness imputed to you because of your "faith in Jesus Christ"?

3. Is that righteousness everlasting or does it come and go?

Needless to say I have not yet gotten an answer!

I have answered, and more than once.

It is my belief that Jesus Christ, through HIS death on the Cross, accomplished or fulfilled all six of the promises of Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
6. to anoint the most Holy.

So what did Jesus Christ accomplish on the Cross. Various dispensational scholars insist the Church is a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel. Does that mean the Cross is just a "parenthesis" in God's program for national Israel or is the substitutionary atonement of the Jesus Christ on the Cross a once for all time Sacrifice. Is the writer of the Book of Hebrews correct when he said:

Did anyone here call the "church" a parenthesis in their explanation to you?
The Cross is never a parenthesis. No one here ever made that suggestion.

Hebrews 1:3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 10:12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

I don't know of anyone that disagrees with those verses. Do you?

Now let's look at the passage where you pulled the above phrases from, and see the context of them. The when they are found in their context they will make better sense.

Dan 9:24-27
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

First note that the Lord says to Daniel:
70 weeks are determined upon thy people and thy holy city.
--This prophecy is specific to the Jews--Daniel's "people."
--The 70 weeks are determined upon the Jews for these things to happen.

(Brenton) Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended,

(ESV) "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin

(ISV) Seventy weeks have been decreed concerning your people and your holy city: to restrain transgression, to put an end to sin,

The transgression and sin are the iniquities of the Jews. During the 70th week Christ (when he comes) will put an end to their transgressions and sins. He hasn't yet. They continue far worse now than they ever were at the time of Christ.

1. to finish the transgression.

2. to make an end of sins.
--The sins are still continuing. Christ will come and put an end to them, as Israel turns to Christ.

3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--At the end of the Tribulation and before the Millennial Kingdom Christ will come and all Israel will turn to him and be saved. They will be reconciled unto him. The passage is directed toward the Jews, not to the Gentiles.
As Paul say in Rom.11:26, "And so all Israel shall be saved."
But that has not happened yet.

4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--It is quite evident that imputed righteousness and everlasting righteousness are quite different.
Daniel speaks of Christ "bringing in" everlasting righteousness.

As Isaac Watts said:
Joy to the world! The Lord is come
Let earth receive her King!
Let every heart prepare Him room

He rules the world with truth and grace
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness
And wonders of His love
And wonders of His love
And wonders and wonders of His love

--The "glories of his righteousness" are everlasting and will be seen all over the world during the Millennial Kingdom. This is a time, as Watts declares, that Christ, the King, will truly be King over all the earth. But He isn't right now. Satan is the god of this world.

5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
When Christ comes again for the Jews, near the end of that 70th week, all the prophecies concerning the Jews will be fulfilled.
That will include the many OT prophecies concerning the Millennial Kingdom, the many prophecies concerning His Second Coming, the many prophecies about "the Day of the Lord," or the Tribulation, Jacob's Trouble, etc. They will all come to a fruition at that time.

6. to anoint the most Holy.
This probably refers to the anointing of Christ as King of Kings sitting on the throne of David, as described in Dan.7:25-27. He will indeed rule over all the earth and every person will worship him. They will have no option. He will rule with a rod of iron.

Now note:
Jerusalem was destroyed by "the armies of Titus." The people or armies actually did the destruction. True? They were commanded by Titus. Titus is referred to as "the prince." "The prince that shall come" is the antecedent of the "he" in verse 27.
It is that "he" who is a foreigner, and not Christ, that will make a covenant with the Jews for seven years and then break it in the midst of those seven years by desecrating the temple. Soon after that the end will come.

Christ never made a covenant with anyone for seven years.

 

[OldRegular]

The question was answered several times over yet you continued to ask, and BTW not answer his questions either.

The original statement in the post was have these occurred for Israel,

to finish the transgression
to make an end of sins
to make reconciliation for iniquity.
to bring in everlasting righteousness.to seal up the vision and prophecy.
to anoint the most Holy.


These came in a question from this verse Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."


Notice the verse says these things would come after 70 weeks upon Daniel's people, so have these occurred upon Daniels' people and the Nation Israel in the Holy City?

You do a good job of parroting the views of the moderator! The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy ended some 2000 years ago. To argue otherwise is to parrot the Jesuit priest:

The 70 weeks of Daniel

As part of the Counter Reformation, the Catholic Church commissioned Jesuit priests to write counter interpretations of Bible prophecy as a counter response to the Protestant reformation when the finger was pointed at them as being antichrist. Spanish Jesuit, Francisco Ribera proposed that the final seven years of the 70 weeks of Daniel was a future antichrist and that antichrist would bring an end to sacrifices in a rebuilt temple. This is where the supposed 7 years of tribulation comes from before the second coming of Christ. But this was manufactured prophecy, written with the sole purpose of deceiving Christians on the true identity of antichrist. When has a Bible passage ever been so abused by Satan? Attributing Daniel’s 70th week of Jesus’ baptism and crucifixion and applying it instead to antichrist is outright blasphemous.

From: {http://www.daniels70weeks.com/index.html}

And you pre-tribbers claim to be people of the Book!:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

 

[DHK]

Christ never made a covenant with anyone for seven years.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Who made a covenant for seven years? And with whom? And when did he do it?
Then when and why did he break it, becoming a covenant breaker?

 

[Revmitchell]

Needless to say I have not yet gotten an answer!

What is it you hope to accomplish by this?