The Children whom God hath given me

[BrotherJoseph]

Many who end up in Perdition have never heard of Christ or the gospel. so they don't go there for rejecting Christ. They go there because of their sin.

Brother Rippon,

I agree. I was just asking Brother DHK about his belief about what "rejecting Jesus" is to him.

 

[Rippon]

Brother Rippon,

I agree. I was just asking Brother DHK about his belief about what "rejecting Jesus" is to him.

I was responding to DHK's take.

Carry on. I appreciate your posts.

 

[DHK]

Many who end up in Perdition have never heard of Christ or the gospel. so they don't go there for rejecting Christ. They go there because of their sin.

If Christ paid the penalty for "everyone" --then why is anyone in Hades? Paid the penalty means no punishment --the sin debt was satisfied. Paid the penalty means they have been ransomed --they are redeemed. There is no way around it.

Those who are eternally condemned are certainly paying their penalty for their sin.

Yes, I am perfectly consistent in my interpretation. Instead of using human rationalization to make one's theology fit a man-made theological construct, I simply take the Bible for what it says.
Christ said:
"I am the way, the truth and life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
There is nothing so clear and simple as that statement, and yet he said it so many different ways:
"I am the door."
"I am the light of the world."
--And so many more.

John said: He that believeth on the Son hath life; he that believeth not the Son of God hath not life.
--How can it be any more simpler than that?

Thus I find your questions irrelevant in the face of such simple truths of the Word of God. Either one believes or he doesn't. There are no "what if's."
If you are worried about the "what if's" of the world you can either:
Go to them yourself, or take it to the Lord in prayer.

 

[Rippon]

I am perfectly consistent in my interpretation.

Consistently wrong. ;-)

Instead of using human rationalization to make one's theology fit a man-made theological construct,

My post was not employing rationalization. It was theologically correct. Your constructions are anthropomorphic

Christ said:
"I am the way, the truth and life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
There is nothing so clear and simple as that statement, and yet he said it so many different ways:
"I am the door."
"I am the light of the world."

John said: He that believeth on the Son hath life; he that believeth not the Son of God hath not life.

I agree with all the Scripture you quoted above. But I don't see the connection it has with the topic-at-hand.

Thus I find your questions irrelevant in the face of such simple truths of the Word of God.

I had one question. The rest of my post consisted of statements.

Either one believes or he doesn't. There are no "what if's."

I am not speaking of what ifs. You are avoiding the thrust of my post.

Go line by line and try refute my post to your heart's content. But don't post off-topic stuff. It's like you are being evasive or something. ;-)

 

[Iconoclast]

Our friend A.W.Pink wants to help us.....lets see what he wrote about Hebrews 2

"That He by the grace of God should taste death for every man." The opening words of this clause set forth the efficient cause which moved the Godhead in sending forth the Son to submit to such unparalleled humiliation: it was free favor of God. It was not because that the ends of Divine government required mercy should be shown to its rebels, still less because that they had any claim upon Him. There is nothing whatever outside God Himself which moves Him to do anything: He "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11). It was solely by the grace and good pleasure of God, and not by the violence of man or Satan, that the Lord Jesus was brought to the Cross to die. The appointment of that costly sacrifice must be traced back to nothing but the sovereign benignity of God.

"For every man." This rendering is quite misleading. "Anthropos," the Greek word for "man" is not in the verse at all. Thus, one of the principal texts relied upon by Arminians in their unscriptural contention for a general atonement vanishes into thin air. The Revised Version places the word "man" in italics to show that it is not found in the original. The Greek is "panta" and signifies "every one," that is, every one of those who form the subjects of the whole passage—every one of "the heirs of salvation" (Heb. 1:14), every one of the "sons" (Heb. 2:10), every one of the "brethren" (Heb. 2:11). We may say that this is the view of the passage taken by Drs. Gouge and J. Brown, by Saphir, and a host of others who might be mentioned. Theologically it is demanded by the "tasted death for every one," i.e., substitutionally, in the room of, that they might not. Hence, every one for whom He tasted death shall themselves never do so (see John 8:52), and this is true only of the people of God.

What we have just said above is confirmed by many Scriptures. "For the transgression of My people was He stricken" said God (Isa. 53:8), and all mankind are not His "people." "I lay down My life for the sheep," said the Son (John 10:10), but every man is not of Christ’s sheep (John 10:26). Christ makes intercession on behalf of those for whom He died (Rom. 8:34), but He prays not for the world (see John 17:9). Those for whom he died are redeemed (Rev. 5:9), and from redemption necessarily follows the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:14), but all have not their sins forgiven."For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (verse 10). This gives the third part of the apostle’s reply to the objection which he is here rebutting, and a most arresting statement it is: he now takes still higher ground, advancing that which should indeed bow our hearts in worship. The word "became" means suited to, in accord with, the character of God. It was consonant with the Divine attributes that the Son should, for a season be "made lower than the angels" in order to "taste death" for His people. It was not only according to God’s eternal purpose, but it was also suited to all His wondrous perfections. Never was God more Godlike than when, in the person of Jesus, He was crucified for our sins.

"For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." There are five things in this verse claiming our reverent and diligent attention. First, the particular character in which God is here viewed; as the One "for whom are all things and by whom are all things." Second, the manner in which it "became" the Most High to bring many sons unto glory by giving up His beloved Son to the awful death of the cross. Third, the particular character in which the Son Himself is here viewed: as "The Captain of our salvation." Fourth, in what sense He was, or could be, "made perfect through sufferings." Fifth, the result of this Divine appointment: the actual conducting of many sons "unto glory."

I wanted to post some solid food to strengthen those who work through and refute all manner of error about the identity of "the children" given from The Father to the Son.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Providing reconciliation for the whole world is an actual work.

What about those who died in remote areas at the same time our blessed Lord was dying? Did He atone for their sins, seeing they died at the same time, too? What about the residents in Zimbabwe that were dying at the time Jesus was bleeding upon the cross? Did they receive this reconciliation, too, seeing they never knew of His existence? The atoning work of the cross is what brings reconciliation to sinners. Look at that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.[2 Cor. 5:19] If God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not counting people's sins against them, then you have a universal salvation where everyone ends up being saved.

Why not address the actual position. Second, when a person receives the reconciliation, that too is an actual work.

Yes it is. A work of God and not man.

Let me try again, Christ = hilasterion = means of salvation.

Please find me one translation that states it that way.

Our hilasterion is not the lid of the ark of the covenant, it is Christ Himself. Please address this truth. Christ is our propitiation or means of salvation.

Christ IS our salvation and not means of. The cross is the means, for from it our blessed Savior hung, bled, and died. Again, find me one translation that states it in that fashion. Thanks.

 

[revmwc]

Revemwc,

Of course unbelief is a sin, "...whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23). Now you have a problem because Hebrews 9:26 tells us the purpose of Christ's death, " ... hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself". This would include unbelief as that too is sin, thus Christ's death couldn't be for every human being otherwise there would be nobody in Hell. Also, in your system, though Christ appeared "to put away sin", apparently he didn't accomplish this for all he had died for, thus he failed in his mission.

God bless,

Brother Joe

Christ efficacious work on the cross was due to Grace correct?

Romans 5:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

.

So salvation is a free gift and all things associated with that efficacious work on the cross was the gift.

That includes Propitiation. But for one to reap the benefits of the gift one must accept that gift. Therefore Christ death on the Cross paid the sin death for all. But until the free gift is accepted its benefits do the receipient no good.

Grace means unconditional favor and by Grace Jesus paid for sin, unconditional favor for us who believe but not for us only but for the whole world that is mankind.

Definition of Grace all that God is free to do for man on the basis of the cross. Grace is the work of God on behalf of man. Grace excludes all human ability and human good.

The concept of Grace depends on who & what God is, never on who and what man is.

The issue of Grace is opposed by an analytical principle called legalism. Legalism is the sum total of, human viewpoint and human good. Human works as well as human merit and human ability.

Every believer has tasted grace at least once. 1 Peter 2:3.

Grace is related to sanctification. The greatest thing God can do for a saved person is to make him like a son. Phase 1 of Grace is positional truth that is we are in Christ. Phase 2 produces the character of Christ. Phase 3 Receiving a resurrection body like that of Christ.

As Grace is unmerited favor it Takes Faith to reap the benefits of the gift. Just as propitiation is unlimited in who it was accomplished for it takes Faith to reap the benefits of that gift. Therefore Faith is required for Grace to be effective and propitiation is connected with Grace in that to receive its benefit one must place their faith in the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

 

[Van]

Good Grief, it has now been asserted Christ is not the means of salvation. I kid you not. Will any Calvinist stand up for the propitiation of Christ?

Can you imagine denying being bought with the blood of Christ? Does 2 Peter 2:1 ring a bell?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

No they don't. That is one of the characteristics of those who hold to an Amil view. In order to hold to their position they must interpret the scripture in an allegorical view.

Post mill and Amill understand the term 1000yrs not as restricted to the literal numbers suggest, in the same way no one says that when Jesus taught that we are to forgive someone 7 times 70 times we are restricted to understand that 490 times is the limit......
So they have a literal understanding of what the term means.

For example it becomes impossible in Rev.20:1-6 for them to interpret the word "thousand" literally even though it is mentioned at least five times in a literal sense.

The term is repeated....but we are not told in what way it is being used.

In some nonsensical way they feel the need to spiritualize it because their Amil position requires them to do so.

Because you cannot grasp it does not mean it is nonsensical.

Really? I just gave you a very good example on why the Bible "should be" interpreted in a literal fashion, and why the Amil cannot interpret it literally. It goes directly against the grain of his preconceived theology.

Until you can give an accurate explanation of these views you have no credibility.

Saying that Israel is simply a shadow of the church is allegory.

Scripture speaks of Israel and their worship as types and shadows of that which is the reality. You once again cannot deal with it....

8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Israel is no shadow.

Israel was 5 things in scripture......just not among dispy thought.

Paul did not pray for the salvation of shadow. He was no lunatic as you seem to depict him. Paul taught through various scriptures that Israel, as a nation, existed during his time. And if it existed in his time, that is after Pentecost, it still exists now.

Meanwhile your confused and rambling thoughts fail once again to address the children spoken of in the OP.

It is not I that inserts "ideas" into scripture. It is you (the Amil) that does so.

I am not Amill but you always try and say what I am even if it is not true.

I don't do away with the literal translation of the word "thousand" and then spiritualize the passage.

Because you think you have the right view does not mean you do.

I don't demean Israel down to simply "a shadow."

A proper understanding of biblical theology is not demeaning but accurate.

I believe the Scripture and the promises which describe a literal kingdom on earth yet to come;

yes you do......and you deny Jesus reigns right now as King from Heaven and you deny Hebrews 8 is for Christians because of it.

you do not. You simply spiritualize those promises away.

I have a biblical understanding that is still growing in spiritual understanding unlike some who prefer carnal thoughts.:thumbsup:

Will the child play with the snake; the lion and the lamb lie down together?

are you spiritualizing now?....it is the wolf.....not the lion-

shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb


but I understand Isa11 as the NT apostles did...as descriptive of the currect Kingdom.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious

guess the Apostle Paul "spiritualized the passage also:in rom15;

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Will Christ rule from the throne of David?
--I believe these promises; apparently you do not. It is all allegory!!

I believe He rules right now as did Peter:
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Good Grief, it has now been asserted Christ is not the means of salvation. I kid you not. Will any Calvinist stand up for the propitiation of Christ?

Can you imagine denying being bought with the blood of Christ? Does 2 Peter 2:1 ring a bell?

You were sent back to your room and told not to return until you learn what propitiation is....:laugh:

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by revmwc.....The point is Christ paid for all sin except one that is the sin of rejecting Him.

...This is not taught in scripture....this is your philosophy...

Excellent, Icon! His children CAN commit the sin of unbelief, and His atonement does indeed cover it!

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK;

Certainly, in witnessing to another, it is not wrong to say: "Christ died for you."

The apostles never said this to anyone who was not yet a believer.
It would be wrong to say this as you in fact do not know this information.

Your meaning would not be: "you and only you and no one else." Nor would he take it that way. Nor would you (hopefully) tell this person: "Christ died for the elect. I can't tell you if you are one of the elect or not. You might not be so what I tell you is all in vain for you might be damned for all eternity and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Only the elect can be saved and you might not be one of them...OTOH, Christ may have "died for you (if and only if you are one of the elect).

Your clumsy caricature demonstrates that you do not know what the good news is.
The truth as scripture reveals it is that Jesus died to save sinners.

The Father has chosen to save a multitude of sinners. He has given them to the Son. At a point in time each and everyone given to the Son will repent and believe the gospel......That is what scripture reveals...no more/ no less.

When we celebrate the Lord's Table we remind ourselves--both individually and corporately as a church--that Christ died for us (that he shed his blood and gave his body) for us. Thus we examine ourselves before we partake of the elements to make sure we are worthy to partake of this most solemn ordinance wherein we remember that Christ died for "us."
--Not the collective elect, but us individually and as a local church

.

There will be no non elect person in heaven.

But herein is the truth. Christ died for all; not that all would be saved,

No...this is not truth at all. It is falsehood. Everyone who Jesus dies for will be saved. He is not willing that any of them perish.

but all who would believe will be saved.

No one "would Believe"....that is why Jesus Himself seeks and saves them.

He paid the penalty for all sin. The greatest sin is unbelief, and he paid the penalty for that sin as well.

He only paid for the sins of the Children.....he lays hold of them and them alone.

Brother Pink -

The Greek verb here translated "He took on" or "laid hold" is found elsewhere in some very striking connections. It is used of Christ’s stretching out His hand and rescuing sinking Peter, Matthew 14:31, there rendered "caught." It is used of Christ when He "took" the blind man by the hand (Mark 8:23). So of the man sick of the dropsy. He "took" and healed him (Luke 14:4). Here in Hebrews 2:16 the reference is to the almighty power and invincible grace of the Captain of our salvation. It receives illustration in those words of the apostle’s where, referring to his own conversion, he said, "for which also I am (was) apprehended (laid hold) of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12). Thus it was and still is with each of God’s elect. In themselves, lost, rushing headlong to destruction; when Christ stretches forth His hand and delivers, so that of each it may be said, "Is not this a brand plucked from the burning" (Zech. 3:2). "Laid hold of" so securely that none can pluck out of His hand!

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[SovereignGrace]

Good Grief, it has now been asserted Christ is not the means of salvation. I kid you not. Will any Calvinist stand up for the propitiation of Christ?

What I said is Christ IS our salvation and not the means. The means is the cross from which He hung bled and died from. Without the cross, no bloodshed. No bloodshed, no reconciliation, no propitiation, &c.

Can you imagine denying being bought with the blood of Christ? Does 2 Peter 2:1 ring a bell?

I have never denied any such a thing. You need to stop bearing falsehoods mon ami.

 

[Iconoclast]

Excellent, Icon! His children CAN commit the sin of unbelief, and His atonement does indeed cover it!

:thumbsup::wavey:.... This explaining away of unbelief as if this sin was not paid for makes no sense whatsoever. Poor theology leads to this kind of absurd carnal reasoning. When people depart from truth all manner of bad ideas are given as a substitute.:thumbs:

 

[SovereignGrace]

Excellent, Icon! His children CAN commit the sin of unbelief, and His atonement does indeed cover it!

If you study it out, every time we sin, we are unbelieving. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.[Rom. 14:23]

 

[DHK]

Many who end up in Perdition have never heard of Christ or the gospel, so they don't go there for rejecting Christ. They go there because of their sin.

The wages of sin is death. We all deserve eternal separation from God.
However Christ came and paid the penalty for all our sin.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is human rationalization:
"Many who end up in Perdition have never heard of Christ or the gospel, so
they don't go there for rejecting Christ."
--Those are your words; not what the Bible says. I gave you what the Bible says (John 14:6; 1John 5:10-13; etc.) Your problem is unbelief in the Word of God. It is either true or not.
"He that hath the Son has life; he that has not the Son of God has not life."
--There is nothing here to question or rationalize.

If Christ paid the penalty for "everyone" --then why is anyone in Hades? Paid the penalty means no punishment --the sin debt was satisfied. Paid the penalty means they have been ransomed --they are redeemed. There is no way around it.

The penalty has been paid, yes. And many have refused the gift that has been offered. One can purchase a gift but that doesn't mean the recipient will automatically receive it. You are taking something for granted. Often out of pride a gift is refused. I "offer" you this explanation, but perhaps out of your pride and stubbornness you won't "receive" it. (a poor example, I know), but nevertheless it is an example.
Not all gifts are received. If it isn't received then the redemption is not effected or efficacious.

Those who are eternally condemned are certainly paying their penalty for their sin.

You are confused. They cannot pay a penalty Christ has already paid.
But they can suffer the consequences for the gift they have rejected, even spurned as they turned their backs on the One who offered that redemption to them. "Here it is; take it." "No, I don't want it; I can make it by myself."

 

[Iconoclast]

QUOTE=SovereignGrace;2237375]If you study it out, every time we sin, we are unbelieving. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.[Rom. 14:23][/QUOTE]

:thumbs::applause::applause::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

The us is the justified elect.....not every person on earth.....every person is not justified.

 

[revmwc]

:thumbsup::wavey:.... This explaining away of unbelief as if this sin was not paid for makes no sense whatsoever. Poor theology leads to this kind of absurd carnal reasoning. When people depart from truth all manner of bad ideas are given as a substitute.:thumbs:

The reason people end up in the Lake of Fire is because they are condemned to it and why because they have not believed on the only begotten son of God and therefore their name is not listed in the book of life. If as you say the sin of unbelief was paid for by Christ those who believe not are said by Christ to be condemned already but you say their sin is paid for therefore atonement is unlimited. They refuse to accept the payment for their sin and reject the sacrifice, it was paid in full all their sin, but they refuse to allow the payment to be effective in their lives.'
I am glad you finally agree that atonement is unlimited.

 

[revmwc]

DHK



The us is the justified elect.....not every person on earth.....every person is not justified.

But every persons sin has been atoned by the blood of the eternal sacrifice. They just refuse the effects of Grace in thier lives.