The Children whom God hath given me

[HankD]

So they're not as described in the text, i.e., brethren, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God, received the knowledge of the truth, sanctified by the blood of the covenant, the LORD's people?

Partaker - sharing. From the very beginning there was a sharing of God with people whether saved or not -
God shared with Cain what His expectations were after Cain expressed his dismay of not being accepted.

Genesis 4
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

Cain heard the good word of God (which He shared with Cain) and the good things to come as God responded to his dismay.

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Cain rejected and rebelled from the word of God and murdered his brother Abel.

Genesis 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Cain prayed and complained to God after he murdered his brother and God respected his prayer protecting him from the rest of mankind.

Genesis 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Just like Cain, every human being coming into the world has light from God.

John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Even unbelievers have a measure of light from God:

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Some theologians believe that after a season of rebellion the Spirit of God will leave off convicting a man and depart from him never to return but I believe it's the opposite:

Genesis 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Felix and Agrippa (IMO) departed from the convicting/reproving work of the Spirit because of Paul's preaching/teaching.

So it is with every one who hates God.
They know He exists and they know His expectations, but they will NOT repent.

Instead they blaspheme Him.

Revelation 16
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


HankD

 

[revmwc]

I want to focus solely on this portion of your post here. I completely agree with you in regards to this post. But the question remains 'how, and why, do people call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved?' As the Romanist wrote For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified.[Rom. 10:10a] We know that according to Jeremiah the prophet The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?[17:9] How then can this heart that is 'beyond cure' 'call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'? He does this I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.[Ez. 11:19] and I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.[Ez. 36:26] Where does this come from? Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”[Jn 3:3]

You think a sinner dead in transgressions and sins[Eph 2:1], with a sin darkened heart can call out to God. In fact, God must first act upon the sinner, quicken him to life, and in this quickening, the gifts of faith and repentance are given so they can be exercised.

I have read numerous times about the lifeboat scenario, and that is wrong, so horribly wrong. That sinner isn't drowning, he is dead. He is floating on top of the water with his face looking at the bottom of the lake. He has flies circling around him, the stench of death all over him. God must bring him onboard the boat, perform Spiritual-CPR, and bring him to life. When life is given, the heart starts pumping again, the lungs inflate and deflate, inflate and deflate. If you have surgery and you flat-line and they perform CPR on you and resuscitate you, you had not one whit to do with it. But you think you can thwart God bringing you to life. You can no more stop the Spiritual birth than you could stop them from performing CPR on you on the surgical table.

That conviction comes from the Holy Spirit. But when the heart is convicted the sinner must respond. Many don't, for example Cain, he offered the works of his hands to God when he was told to offer a lamb and its blood. When God refused the offering what did He say to Cain?

Genesis 4:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Notice the Lord spoke to Him just as the Holy Spirit convicts today, Cain was told if that is maybe he would maybe he wouldn't, but if he did well and followed God's instruction salvation was his. But Cain rejected to do and follow God's instruction He refused to receive Christ. That lead him to murder his brother.

Just as it is in our world today people are convicted by the Holy Spirit but refuse to receive salvation. It's there the offer made the price has been paid but they walk in the way of Cain and reject Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

That's quite some gymnastics there Hank, all to disprove what the text describes them as, i.e., brethren, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God, received the knowledge of the truth, sanctified by the blood of the covenant, the LORD's people.

What about the type given of the Exodus generation that the epistle is built around? All those that believed not the gospel and He swore in His wrath they would not enter into His rest; did they all go to hell (by type)? Did 'His rest' signify eternity in heaven? Did wandering in the wilderness signify eternity in hell?

 

[DHK]

DHK
In post 146 you offer three sections from Acts.......not one of those sections says Christ died for you.
You try and make the Apostles say that......when you state......in other words. .....but they did not say it at all. This is the same problem that you do here everyday. You try and make people say what they did not say.

The apostles did speak of sin and repentance to the believing ones....yes...just like I said.....but they NEVER told any random person that Christ died for them.read it again....also baptists use the London Baptist confession of faith....
The wcf is the Presbyterian confession.

I tell people the truth all the time....even you.lol

I used the KJV which uses English spoken over 400 years ago. Perhaps if I used a modern paraphrase (which you would reject) I could find "Christ died for you." The fact is that I won't find those exact words in the KJV, but the verses I quoted certainly had the message.

There is not a message that went by where they didn't preach Christ--Christ crucified and risen again.

There wasn't a Lord's Table that went by where the believers did not celebrate and bring to remembrance the death of our Lord--that Christ died for them.

On both fronts the fact that Christ died not only for all but for each personally is preached and taught. This fact cannot be overlooked without a denial of Scripture.

Don't ever quote the wcf again if that is your excuse (Presbyterian). For you have quoted it many times to substantiate your beliefs. Your statement there is just plain hypocritical.

 

[Iconoclast]

I used the KJV which uses English spoken over 400 years ago. Perhaps if I used a modern paraphrase (which you would reject) I could find "Christ died for you." The fact is that I won't find those exact words in the KJV, but the verses I quoted certainly had the message.

There is not a message that went by where they didn't preach Christ--Christ crucified and risen again.

There wasn't a Lord's Table that went by where the believers did not celebrate and bring to remembrance the death of our Lord--that Christ died for them.

On both fronts the fact that Christ died not only for all but for each personally is preached and taught. This fact cannot be overlooked without a denial of Scripture.

Don't ever quote the wcf again if that is your excuse (Presbyterian). For you have quoted it many times to substantiate your beliefs. Your statement there is just plain hypocritical.

I almost always use the London Baptist confession of faith 1689 that is what Baptist use .
Westminster Confession of Faith is an excellent confession but we disagree with it on two points.
Could you show where I use the Westminster Confession of Faith instead of the 1689 without you the only time I bring it up as a comparison or support what the 1689 says
You mention that at the Lord's table people are told that Christ died for them of course of course that's all that because that's what the Lord's table celebrates that He died for the believers
No matter what version you use your not going to come up with the idea that Christ died for you it is not anywhere

 

[DHK]

I almost always use the London Baptist confession of faith 1689 that is what Baptist use .
Westminster Confession of Faith is an excellent confession but we disagree with it on two points.
Could you show where I use the Westminster Confession of Faith instead of the 1689 without you the only time I bring it up as a comparison or support what the 1689 says

You have used the wcf in the past. But I am not going to waste my time doing a search for it. The London Baptist of 1689 will do just fine:

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

Chapter 5: Of Divine Providence
6._____ As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
( Romans 1:24-26, 28; Romans 11:7, 8; Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 13:12; Deuteronomy 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Psalms 81:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Exodus 8:15, 32; Isaiah 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:7, 8 )

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

Chapter 5: Of Divine Providence
6._____ As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
( Romans 1:24-26, 28; Romans 11:7, 8; Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 13:12; Deuteronomy 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Psalms 81:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Exodus 8:15, 32; Isaiah 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:7, 8 )

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
4._____

http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

You believe only the elect will be saved. You have repeated that over and over again.
You also believe in reprobation.
Note especially Chapter 10: Effectual Calling:

Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
You mention that at the Lord's table people are told that Christ died for them of course of course that's all that because that's what the Lord's table celebrates that He died for the believers

Even if they receive the gospel, believe the gospel, are called by the Spirit to believe the gospel, yet they still cannot be saved. This is reprobation and entirely contrary to the teaching of the Word of God:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

No matter what version you use your not going to come up with the idea that Christ died for you it is not anywhere

It is the very heart of the gospel message by the which ye are saved:

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1Co 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
--Was Paul a fool to preach a "dead Christ." Why did stand "in jeopardy every hour, every day?" Christ not only died for their sins, he arose from the dead.

Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
--He put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

[Rebel]

Like Felix and Agrippa, they came close, very close to salvation ... almost ... but were not saved.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

HankD

I don't buy that. The verses say, "made partakers of the Holy Spirit", and renew them again to repentance".

 

[HankD]

That's quite some gymnastics there Hank, all to disprove what the text describes them as, i.e., brethren, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God, received the knowledge of the truth, sanctified by the blood of the covenant, the LORD's people.

What about the type given of the Exodus generation that the epistle is built around? All those that believed not the gospel and He swore in His wrath they would not enter into His rest; did they all go to hell (by type)? Did 'His rest' signify eternity in heaven? Did wandering in the wilderness signify eternity in hell?

Call it what you will, they were Hebrews who were probably "brethren" (Jews, the chosen people) who had heard Peter on the Day of Pentecost, saw the mighty works, heard the miraculous tongues, heard the good news of things to come yet entered not into the church through the exercise of faith. They were Peter's "brethren" because they were Jewish.

I don't see the significance of what you ask about the wandering in the wilderness. My issue is that they were never saved in the first place. Kind of like lots of folk who talk the talk and seem to walk the walk in churches today but are in all probability not regenerate.

HankD

 

[HankD]

I don't buy that. The verses say, "made partakers of the Holy Spirit", and renew them again to repentance".

"partaker" simply means one who shares. it does NOT (IMO) have the nuance of the infilling.

Being practicing Jews, they heard the message on Pentecost, rejected it and now having had rejected it, it is impossible to bring them back to the place of repentance (humanly speaking) in Christ by the preaching of the word again to them UNLESS

Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Paul was such a one.

HankD

 

[Rebel]

"partaker" simply means one who shares. it does NOT (IMO) have the nuance of the infilling.

Being practicing Jews, they heard the message on Pentecost, rejected it and now having had rejected it, it is impossible to bring them back to the place of repentance (humanly speaking) in Christ by the preaching of the word again to them UNLESS

Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Paul was such a one.

HankD

If you partake of a meal, does that food get inside of you, or do you just sit and look at the food?

It doesn't say "bring back to the place of repentance". It says "renew again to repentance", meaning they had already repented the first time.

 

[kyredneck]

Call it what you will, they were Hebrews....

The Prophet, who came only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, foretold precisely of the 'falling away' of this epistle:

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side.
20 And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it;
21 yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth.
22 And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Mt 13

Which of these 'grounds' are 'regenerate' in your theology? Only the last one?

...My issue is that they were never saved in the first place....

My issue is the total corruption by the evangelicals of the word 'saved'.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The cross is not our propitiation, Christ is!

All I am saying is that the cross was the means by which our blessed Lord was hung, bled and died upon.

Calvinism denies those who were not saved, were bought with Christ's blood. If you deny this, Sir, then you are bearing false witness.

The bible is clear that Christ died for His sheep.

 

[Van]

Folks, there was a popular phrase during the Watergate era, a "non-denial denial." Did you see where it was admitted that Calvinism denies those who were not saved, were bought with the blood of Christ? I did not either.

In review, Christ is our propitiation or means of salvation. Christ died for all mankind, those who would be saved and those not saved. They were all bought by His blood, 2 Peter 2:1. Christ tasted death for everyone. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world of fallen mankind.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Folks, there was a popular phrase during the Watergate era, a "non-denial denial." Did you see where it was admitted that Calvinism denies those who were not saved, were bought with the blood of Christ? I did not either.

In review, Christ is our propitiation or means of salvation. Christ died for all mankind, those who would be saved and those not saved. They were all bought by His blood, 2 Peter 2:1. Christ tasted death for everyone. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world of fallen mankind.

You have been shown by many in here that you have an false understanding of what propitiation actually accomplishes. It satisified God's wrath. If Christ propitiated for everyone w/o exception, then there is no wrath on All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.[Eph. 2:3] There is no wrath upon His sheep, but upon the rest of the world.

 

[revmwc]

You have been shown by many in here that you have an false understanding of what propitiation actually accomplishes. It satisified God's wrath. If Christ propitiated for everyone w/o exception, then there is no wrath on All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.[Eph. 2:3] There is no wrath upon His sheep, but upon the rest of the world.

No he has been shown a view in opposition to his that you feel he has a false understanding of propitiation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No he has been shown a view in opposition to his that you feel he has a false understanding of propitiation.

Propitiation means:
•••an appeasing, propitiating
•••the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Appease--to bring to a state of peace, quiet, ease, calm, or contentment; pacify; soothe, to satisfy, allay, or relieve; assuage: to yield or concede to the belligerent demands of (a nation, group, person, etc.) in a conciliatory effort, sometimes at the expense of justice or other principles.

If He propitiated for everyone w/o exception, then God's wrath has been soothed, satisfied, relieved, allayed, assuaged, &c; ergo universalism.

 

[SovereignGrace]

From www.i.word.com

pro·pi·ti·a·tion
\prō-ˌpi-shē-ˈā-shən\
noun
1 :the act of propitiating
2 :something that propitiates; specifically :an atoning sacrifice

atone
\ə-ˈtōn\
verb

Full Definition
atoned aton·ing

1 obsolete :reconcile
2 :to supply satisfaction for :expiate

 

[HankD]

If you partake of a meal, does that food get inside of you, or do you just sit and look at the food?

It doesn't say "bring back to the place of repentance". It says "renew again to repentance", meaning they had already repented the first time.

I disagree, read it again because that's what it means.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Though it is impossible with man it is possible with God.

Partake
The word for "partake" of food is different that the word in Hebrews 6:4.

The word for "partake" (metalambano) with the nuance of "eat" of food e.g.

Timothy 2:6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker (metalambano) of the fruits.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers (metochos) of the Holy Ghost,

metochos -

03419: Friberg Lexicon - participating in.
o4005: UBS Lexicon - shares in as companion, comrade.
04246: Louw-Nida - One who shares with another in an enterprise.

They were partnered with the Holy Spirit speaking in and hearing and understanding unlearned alien languages whether they were saved or not.

HankD

 

[revmwc]

Propitiation means:
•••an appeasing, propitiating
•••the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Appease--to bring to a state of peace, quiet, ease, calm, or contentment; pacify; soothe, to satisfy, allay, or relieve; assuage: to yield or concede to the belligerent demands of (a nation, group, person, etc.) in a conciliatory effort, sometimes at the expense of justice or other principles.

If He propitiated for everyone w/o exception, then God's wrath has been soothed, satisfied, relieved, allayed, assuaged, &c; ergo universalism.

Christ satisfied the requirement or penalty or wages for sin. What are/is the wages/penalty for sin?

Death, Christ died on the cross and appeased God's requirements for sins.

What condemns a person to the Lake of Fire?

John 3:18, those who "believe not are condemned already" where in that statement by Jesus do you see that man is condemned because of sin?

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The Lamb's book of life is consulted for all those who enter into the New Jerusalem, the New Heaven and earth. How is on entered into the Lamb's book of life, John 3:18 "those believe are not condemned"

That same book is consulted at the Great White Throne Judgment,

Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Same book is checked for those who are condemned to the Lake of Fire and their names are not written in the Lamb's book of life because of not believing in the Only Begotten Son of God.

God is satisfied appeased with the payment of Christ blood shed for mankind. The unbelievers is sentenced to the Lake of Fire because of unbelief that is rejecting the free gift of Grace by refusing to have Faith in Christ.

 

[Rebel]

I disagree, read it again because that's what it means.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Though it is impossible with man it is possible with God.

Partake
The word for "partake" of food is different that the word in Hebrews 6:4.

The word for "partake" (metalambano) with the nuance of "eat" of food e.g.

Timothy 2:6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker (metalambano) of the fruits.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers (metochos) of the Holy Ghost,

metochos -

03419: Friberg Lexicon - participating in.
o4005: UBS Lexicon - shares in as companion, comrade.
04246: Louw-Nida - One who shares with another in an enterprise.

They were partnered with the Holy Spirit speaking in and hearing and understanding unlearned alien languages whether they were saved or not.

HankD

It takes considerable wresting of the scriptures to come up with that interpretation, instead of taking what the verses say at face value.