Featured A False Teaching continued...

Seeing that the last thread was closed before DHK responded to one of my posts, I want to keep this discussion ongoing. Here is what I posted:



DHK,

You have stated that God loves all men the same, and any properly exegeted verse will not bear that fruit, mon ami.


We can read Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.[1 Jn 4:7-10] Now, you can see that our source of loving God comes from God and not us. Why did the Romanist state "And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us."?[Rom. 5:5] If we had the capacity, the ability, the functionality to love God, then why is His love poured out into our hearts, and why we are born of that love? We, the carnal, sinful, unregenerate sinner hates God. We are unable to understand His word as Paul wrote The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[1 cor. 2:14] Paul then reiterates that thought to the church at Rome by stating The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.[Rom. 8:7]

The only ones who are truly able to biblically love God are those who have been given that love from Him. You and I hated Him while we were sinners. As sinners we were His enemies and yet we can see that or if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life![Rom. 5:10] We would not This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.[John 3:19-21]

Those who truly love God are those who have been born of that love via the regenerative power of the Spirit. And God shows them His love by birthing them by His Spirit, drawing them unto Himself as a as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.

 

I am responding to DHK's post that was in response to a post by Protestant. All quotes are DHK's:

As long as man does something, it is effectual? That gives man all the power, non, monsieur? I have heard it many times 'after I walked the aisle', 'after I knelt at an altar to pray', 'after I slipped my hand up while everybody's heads were bowed and eyes closed'. No wonder they were saved. They did all the heavy lifting. In your view, you're a $500,000 Lambourghini that someone puts the key in, turns the ignition and can start if you choose to. I was that old rusted down $299.95 1979 Ford Pinto behind the dealsership that nobody wanted. My previous owner abused me and let me rust down. He would not change my oil regularly, would not give me regular tune-ups, would not rotate my tires, left me out in the hot sun and cold snows. But bless God, someone remembered me when I was new and knew that I was 'good' at one time and bought me and made me brand new again. Adam caused Satan to have lordship over me from conception, and all he did was abuse me. But praise God, Jesus remembered man when he was upright, and bought me back.

By the way, salvation is not an 'opportunity', it is a calling, and gift.

Again, mon ami, the 'world' does not mean EVERYBODY WHO EVER LIVED. Millions upon millions, maybe even billions died before Christ came in the flesh. Those who perished in hell He did not die for. He died for believers. Remember, God is He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.[Mk 12:27a] People are already condemned in their state of unbelief. What is the opposite of condemnation? Why it is justification, monsieur. What brings justification, mon ami? Why it is faith, monsieur. Who is the one who justifies sinners, mon ami? Why it is God, mon ami. We can read where Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[Gal 3:8] And then there is since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.[Rom. 3:30] And then there is and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.[Rom. 3:24] And then there is also so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.[Tit. 3:7] And then there is also Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him![Rom. 5:9] So we can see where we are a) justified by faith, b) justified by His blood, c) justidied by His grace. If man has 'indwelling faith' he has saved himself, monsieur.

Yes, but those who do not shall perish. You keep saying God will not command people to do that which they can not do? That is a catergorically false statement, mon ami. Here are some examples, mon ami. We can read "No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”(The KJV states is 'go and sin no more.") Has any of us truly left our life of sin behind us? Sure, we do not live as others in the world, but we strive with sin daily. God commanding us to do that which we can not accomplish on our own is God's way of showing us our need of His grace. Then as I previously stated, God gave the Isrraelites the Law and commanded them to kep it, knowing all the time they could not. Then we our commanded to But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do.[1 Pet. 1:15] These are not just His suggestions to us. We are commanded to be holy. None of us can be holy. We strive to be holy, but we fail at it, miserably.

Yet many have, are, and will.

In context, that is His sheep, monsieur.

Then the whole world is saved! Even those in hell! Those who died before He came in the flesh, He propitiated their sins, too.


The Greek word used for propitiation in 1 Jn 2:2 is:

hilasmos and its renderings are an appeasing, propitiating, the means of appeasing, a propitiation.

Now, the definition of appeasing is: pacify or placate (someone) by acceding to their demands. And also to mean: relieve or satisfy (a demand or a feeling).

God's wrath has been appeased, pacified, placated, relieved, satisfied. If Christ 'propitiated' everybody's sins, then no one goes to hell. God's wrath is placated, and there is no wrath to be poured out upon sinners, seeing that by God pouring His wrath out upon His Son as the Romanist stated He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?[Rom. 8:32] The 'but gave Him up for us all' is referring to the church, and not all mankind, mon ami.

 

You would. :tongue3:

You are proving my point, mon ami. :thumbsup: Not all love is the same. Not all faith is the same, monsieur.

That is not the love required in loving our Master. If we love Him, we will keep His commands. To the best of our abilities, that is.

Yet that is not the love I am talking about.

Hitler adored his mother. Wicked people have those they would 'go to the ends of the earth' for, but they hate God.

By your deeds you hated Him. You could not love Him and be a sinner serving Satan. You have to love one or the other, not both. As sinners, we loved Satan. As christians, we love God. We can not serve two masters.

:thumbsup:

God's love is in Christ and no one outside Christ has His love. We were chosen in Christ. God saw us in Christ from the creation of the world, He being Eternal. He sees us NOW rejoicing in heaven. His loved is upon Christ, our Shepherd, and the Shepherd's sheep. The goats do not have His love.

 

Bumping...come guys, let us debate this.

 

:thumbsup:

Yes it is, mon ami. Yet, there are also suicide-bombers who willfully die for their 'god' as well. They love their 'god', but again, that is not the love I have been telling you guys about. A father dying for his child is admirable, but not divine. A husband dying in the stead of his wife is a loving gesture, but not divine love, monsieur. Until you realize there are more than one type of love, more than one type of faith, more than one 'world', expressed in the bible, you will make faux pas après faux pas.

Non, mon ami, non. Read the context of that chapter, mon ami. Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.[Rom. 5:1-11] The focal point is the church, the believers, the sheep, the saved, the elect, monsieur, and not the whole entire world.

Read above comment. Context is the believers and not everybody who ever lived.

Written to believers. Context of that passage refers to His sheep.

Christ death, burial and resurrection reconciled the church, monsieur,, the sheep, and not the goats. Context of that passage, again, is His sheep.

 

I just caught this after I finished my last post, so I will focus solely on this question. I have heard this question asked quite a bit and I shake my head at it. How do you know you are one of His? Did you choose wrongly and 'jump too quick'? I have seen this happen on more than one occasion, and in free will believing churches, too. Just because someone walked the aisle, came to an altar and prayed, raised a hand while heads were bowed with eyes closed, does not make them true Christians.


I base my walk with God solely upon scripture. Sure, I love to feel Him move within me, but I do not base my salvation on feelings, because I am sure the SDA's, the Mormons, and RCC's get the 'warm and fuzzies', too.


My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.[1 Jn 2]


I know I am His because I do not live worldly anymore. I do not do the things I once did, because I hate them. When I sin, I feel remorse and repent of it. I no longer live carnally.

 

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

I have no clue what you are driving at here, mon ami. I gave you a very solid biblical answer, and you still want more?

I no longer live like I used do. Before, when I sinned, I kept on sinning, showing no remorse. Yet, after the miraculous transformation of my life by God's effectual calling in my life, when I sin, I now feel remorse and repent. My life is no longer mine, it belongs to God. As Paul wrote For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God,[Col. 3:3] and also I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me,[Gal. 2:20] and then there is For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—[Rom. 6:6]and also Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires,[Gal. 5:24] and furthermore But that is not the way of life in Christ that you learned about. You heard about Christ and were taught about life in him. What you learned was the truth about Jesus. You were taught not to live the way you used to. You must get rid of your old way of life. That’s because it has been made impure by the desire for things that lead you astray. You were taught to be made new in your thinking. You were taught to start living a new life. It is created to be truly good and holy, just as God is. So each of you must get rid of your lying. Speak the truth to your neighbor. We are all parts of one body. Scripture says, “When you are angry, do not sin.” Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry. Don’t give the devil a chance. Anyone who has been stealing must never steal again. Instead, they must work. They must do something useful with their own hands. Then they will have something to give to people in need. Don’t let any evil talk come out of your mouths. Say only what will help to build others up and meet their needs. Then what you say will help those who listen. Do not make God’s Holy Spirit mourn. The Holy Spirit is the proof that you belong to God. And the Spirit is the proof that God will set you completely free. Get rid of all hard feelings, anger and rage. Stop all fighting and lying. Don’t have anything to do with any kind of hatred. Be kind and tender to one another. Forgive one another, just as God forgave you because of what Christ has done.[Eph. 4:20-32 NIRV]

I base my salvation upon God's word, and solely on God's word.


Now, you believe in free will. How do you know you did not choose foolishly and are not one of His? You could have made a false confession, too. Many will stand before Him and be really surprised at their reward given to them by Him.

I am not saying, or even implying, you are lost, monsieur. But you have no way in knowing your salvation is any more secured than mine. Both of us have to really on His word for our assurance.

 

I was listening to a preacher(FWB to boot) one day who was preaching about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and the fiery furnace. This caused me much concern, truly realizing where my sinful life was headed. God caused a Godly sorrow to set up in my life and drew me to Himself. I gave my life to Him and He saved me.

Well, I am not one of those types.

:thumbsup:

So can I. I know the very instance He made me brand new.

I am not saying one does not choose Christ, monsieur. But unless He first chooses them, they will never choose Him.

No disagreement here.

I know the very moment He cleansed me from all unrighteousness, monsieur.

True.

 

Now here you have brought up a salient point, a crux of the centuries long debate, the choice of being saved. For the record, I have not stated we do not choose Christ, mon ami.. However, before we can choose Him, He must first choose us. As we can both read You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.[John 15:16] Now, I know you will state that was only to the 12 Apostles, but I disagree. If God has chosen any and all without exception, then everybody will be saved, even those who were already dead before He came in the flesh, those who died minutes after He died, died during the three days His body laid in the tomb, &c. Jesus came to do the will of the Father, to seek and SAVE that which is lost, monsieur. If He seeked and saved them all, then all will be saved, if you follow the way Jesus stated it.


He chose us from the creation of the world monsieur, gave them to Jesus to die in their stead, and then one-by-one, brought each of those sheep back into the fold.

 

I want us to get off of 'us' and back to the subject at hand.


Now, I wanted to add that in your schema, God only goes so far in salvation.