A False Teaching continued...

[SovereignGrace]

Seeing that the last thread was closed before DHK responded to one of my posts, I want to keep this discussion ongoing. Here is what I posted:



DHK,

You have stated that God loves all men the same, and any properly exegeted verse will not bear that fruit, mon ami.


We can read Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.[1 Jn 4:7-10] Now, you can see that our source of loving God comes from God and not us. Why did the Romanist state "And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us."?[Rom. 5:5] If we had the capacity, the ability, the functionality to love God, then why is His love poured out into our hearts, and why we are born of that love? We, the carnal, sinful, unregenerate sinner hates God. We are unable to understand His word as Paul wrote The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[1 cor. 2:14] Paul then reiterates that thought to the church at Rome by stating The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.[Rom. 8:7]

The only ones who are truly able to biblically love God are those who have been given that love from Him. You and I hated Him while we were sinners. As sinners we were His enemies and yet we can see that or if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life![Rom. 5:10] We would not This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.[John 3:19-21]

Those who truly love God are those who have been born of that love via the regenerative power of the Spirit. And God shows them His love by birthing them by His Spirit, drawing them unto Himself as a as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am responding to DHK's post that was in response to a post by Protestant. All quotes are DHK's:

It is ineffectual for that individual. It is not ineffectual for all that believe. It remains effectual for that person as long as he lives, as long as he has the opportunity to believe. This age is the age of grace. One he dies he faces judgment.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

As long as man does something, it is effectual? That gives man all the power, non, monsieur? I have heard it many times 'after I walked the aisle', 'after I knelt at an altar to pray', 'after I slipped my hand up while everybody's heads were bowed and eyes closed'. No wonder they were saved. They did all the heavy lifting. In your view, you're a $500,000 Lambourghini that someone puts the key in, turns the ignition and can start if you choose to. I was that old rusted down $299.95 1979 Ford Pinto behind the dealsership that nobody wanted. My previous owner abused me and let me rust down. He would not change my oil regularly, would not give me regular tune-ups, would not rotate my tires, left me out in the hot sun and cold snows. But bless God, someone remembered me when I was new and knew that I was 'good' at one time and bought me and made me brand new again. Adam caused Satan to have lordship over me from conception, and all he did was abuse me. But praise God, Jesus remembered man when he was upright, and bought me back.

By the way, salvation is not an 'opportunity', it is a calling, and gift.

Quoted by Protestant: Thus, you make man’s faith the effectual cause of eternal life, Christ’s sacrifice remaining ineffectual for most.

DHK's response to Protestant:
No, Christ did.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Again, mon ami, the 'world' does not mean EVERYBODY WHO EVER LIVED. Millions upon millions, maybe even billions died before Christ came in the flesh. Those who perished in hell He did not die for. He died for believers. Remember, God is He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.[Mk 12:27a] People are already condemned in their state of unbelief. What is the opposite of condemnation? Why it is justification, monsieur. What brings justification, mon ami? Why it is faith, monsieur. Who is the one who justifies sinners, mon ami? Why it is God, mon ami. We can read where Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[Gal 3:8] And then there is since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.[Rom. 3:30] And then there is and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.[Rom. 3:24] And then there is also so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.[Tit. 3:7] And then there is also Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him![Rom. 5:9] So we can see where we are a) justified by faith, b) justified by His blood, c) justidied by His grace. If man has 'indwelling faith' he has saved himself, monsieur.

God's will is:
That all men should repent.

Yes, but those who do not shall perish. You keep saying God will not command people to do that which they can not do? That is a catergorically false statement, mon ami. Here are some examples, mon ami. We can read "No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”(The KJV states is 'go and sin no more.") Has any of us truly left our life of sin behind us? Sure, we do not live as others in the world, but we strive with sin daily. God commanding us to do that which we can not accomplish on our own is God's way of showing us our need of His grace. Then as I previously stated, God gave the Isrraelites the Law and commanded them to kep it, knowing all the time they could not. Then we our commanded to But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do.[1 Pet. 1:15] These are not just His suggestions to us. We are commanded to be holy. None of us can be holy. We strive to be holy, but we fail at it, miserably.

That no one should perish.

Yet many have, are, and will.

That all men would be saved.

In context, that is His sheep, monsieur.

And to that end he made a propitiation, not for us only but for the sins of the whole world.

Then the whole world is saved! Even those in hell! Those who died before He came in the flesh, He propitiated their sins, too.


The Greek word used for propitiation in 1 Jn 2:2 is:

hilasmos and its renderings are an appeasing, propitiating, the means of appeasing, a propitiation.

Now, the definition of appeasing is: pacify or placate (someone) by acceding to their demands. And also to mean: relieve or satisfy (a demand or a feeling).

God's wrath has been appeased, pacified, placated, relieved, satisfied. If Christ 'propitiated' everybody's sins, then no one goes to hell. God's wrath is placated, and there is no wrath to be poured out upon sinners, seeing that by God pouring His wrath out upon His Son as the Romanist stated He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?[Rom. 8:32] The 'but gave Him up for us all' is referring to the church, and not all mankind, mon ami.

 

[DHK]

You have stated that God loves all men the same, and any properly exegeted verse will not bear that fruit, mon ami.

I disagree.

We can read Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.[1 Jn 4:7-10] Now, you can see that our source of loving God comes from God and not us. Why did the Romanist state "And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us."?[Rom. 5:5] If we had the capacity, the ability, the functionality to love God, then why is His love poured out into our hearts, and why we are born of that love? We, the carnal, sinful, unregenerate sinner hates God. We are unable to understand His word as Paul wrote The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[1 cor. 2:14] Paul then reiterates that thought to the church at Rome by stating The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.[Rom. 8:7]

Of course you are speaking of divine love--the love that God bestows upon us, and that God gives Christians. This is another subject.

That does not mean that man does not have the capacity to love on some level, even on a great level. Read history. How many times have I read of soldiers who have thrown themselves on a land mine sacrificing their life for the lives of fellow soldiers. I have read of husbands throwing themselves in front of a barrage of bullets just to save their wife and children. That is love.
One of the greatest examples of love demonstrated to this world by an unsaved RCC nun was by Mother Theresa. She worked tirelessly giving love and devotion for those children who were outcasts, loving the unloveable, the outcasts of India--the lepers. She did what most "born again" Baptists who claim to possess the divine love of God would never do. Love is action. It is a selfless sacrifice of one's time and energy on behalf of others. That is what Mother Theresa did. She sacrificed her time, her energy on behalf of others. She loved.

What she could not do is love God supremely for she lacked a personal relationship with him, but she could love.
Like faith, love has an object.
The rich young ruler went away sad, for he loved his riches more than he loved God.

The only ones who are truly able to biblically love God are those who have been given that love from Him. You and I hated Him while we were sinners. As sinners we were His enemies and yet we can see that or if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life![Rom. 5:10] We would not This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.[John 3:19-21]

Sometimes we take Scripture out of context.
If I speak from my own testimony, I was saved when I was 20. I don't ever remember a time in my life when "I hated God." I was a devout RCC, often wanting to know the truth about God. But I don't ever remember hating God.
I was separated from God by my sin. I needed to be reconciled to God--my greatest need.
That men love darkness rather than light, is a general statement of mankind, not an absolute statement of every man. It wasn't a statement that described Cornelius, was it?

Those who truly love God are those who have been born of that love via the regenerative power of the Spirit. And God shows them His love by birthing them by His Spirit, drawing them unto Himself as a as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.

Of course, that is what the Bible says about His children. We are in a unique relationship with Him. How can it be any other way.

That doesn't mean that God loves any less the "world," that his love for the world in general was not deficient in any way. His blood was still shed so that any person is able to come to Christ, no one excepted.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I disagree.

You would. :tongue3:

Of course you are speaking of divine love--the love that God bestows upon us, and that God gives Christians. This is another subject.

You are proving my point, mon ami. :thumbsup: Not all love is the same. Not all faith is the same, monsieur.

That does not mean that man does not have the capacity to love on some level, even on a great level. Read history. How many times have I read of soldiers who have thrown themselves on a land mine sacrificing their life for the lives of fellow soldiers. I have read of husbands throwing themselves in front of a barrage of bullets just to save their wife and children. That is love.

That is not the love required in loving our Master. If we love Him, we will keep His commands. To the best of our abilities, that is.

One of the greatest examples of love demonstrated to this world by an unsaved RCC nun was by Mother Theresa. She worked tirelessly giving love and devotion for those children who were outcasts, loving the unloveable, the outcasts of India--the lepers. She did what most "born again" Baptists who claim to possess the divine love of God would never do. Love is action. It is a selfless sacrifice of one's time and energy on behalf of others. That is what Mother Theresa did. She sacrificed her time, her energy on behalf of others. She loved.

Yet that is not the love I am talking about.

What she could not do is love God supremely for she lacked a personal relationship with him, but she could love.
Like faith, love has an object.
The rich young ruler went away sad, for he loved his riches more than he loved God.

Hitler adored his mother. Wicked people have those they would 'go to the ends of the earth' for, but they hate God.

Sometimes we take Scripture out of context.
If I speak from my own testimony, I was saved when I was 20. I don't ever remember a time in my life when "I hated God." I was a devout RCC, often wanting to know the truth about God. But I don't ever remember hating God.
I was separated from God by my sin. I needed to be reconciled to God--my greatest need.
That men love darkness rather than light, is a general statement of mankind, not an absolute statement of every man. It wasn't a statement that described Cornelius, was it?

By your deeds you hated Him. You could not love Him and be a sinner serving Satan. You have to love one or the other, not both. As sinners, we loved Satan. As christians, we love God. We can not serve two masters.

Of course, that is what the Bible says about His children. We are in a unique relationship with Him. How can it be any other way.

:thumbsup:

That doesn't mean that God loves any less the "world," that his love for the world in general was not deficient in any way. His blood was still shed so that any person is able to come to Christ, no one excepted.

God's love is in Christ and no one outside Christ has His love. We were chosen in Christ. God saw us in Christ from the creation of the world, He being Eternal. He sees us NOW rejoicing in heaven. His loved is upon Christ, our Shepherd, and the Shepherd's sheep. The goats do not have His love.

 

[Protestant]

One of the greatest examples of love demonstrated to this world by an unsaved RCC nun was by Mother Theresa. She worked tirelessly giving love and devotion for those children who were outcasts, loving the unloveable, the outcasts of India--the lepers. She did what most "born again" Baptists who claim to possess the divine love of God would never do. Love is action. It is a selfless sacrifice of one's time and energy on behalf of others. That is what Mother Theresa did. She sacrificed her time, her energy on behalf of others. She loved.

What she could not do is love God supremely for she lacked a personal relationship with him, but she could love.

Mother Teresa was religious but lost and is now in Hell awaiting her judgment, the second death.

She openly worshipped Antichrist Pope John Paul 2, as well as the breaden god, the Roman Catholic false Christ.

She was a superstitious idolater of the first order.

To die under her spell is to die damned.

"The most beautiful gift for a person is that he can participate in the suffering of Christ," said Mother Teresa. Once she had tried to comfort a screaming sufferer, "You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you." The sufferer screamed back, furious, "Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing me." http://sathyavaadi.tripod.com/truthisgod/papers/020507.htm

The website cited above asks the pertinent question: Mother Teresa: Where are her Millions?

One thing is certain. The money was not invested in providing up-to-date medical facilities for the sick and dying.

The English doctor Jack Preger once worked in the home for the dying. He says, "If one wants to give love, understanding and care, one uses sterile needles. This is probably the richest order in the world. Many of the dying there do not have to be dying in a strictly medical sense." The British newspaper Guardian described the hospice as an "organized form of neglectful assistance".
It seems that the medical care of the orphans is hardly any better. In 1991 the head of Pro Infante in Germany sent a newsletter to adoptive parents: " Please check the validity of the vaccinations of your children. We assume that in some case they have been vaccinated with expired vaccines, or with vaccines that had been rendered useless by improper storage conditions." Ibid.

CONCLUSION: For a professed spirit-filled Christian to elevate a Christ-hating, wafer-worshipping idolater as the exemplification of love is cause for great concern and worry.

 

[DHK]

CONCLUSION: For a professed spirit-filled Christian to elevate a Christ-hating, wafer-worshipping idolater as the exemplification of love is cause for great concern and worry.

No it isn't. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Not just India, but the countries all around that area: Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. These nations are desperate for missionaries. Many of them are Islamic nations, and some of them the most violent nations hostile to westerners. (Check your U.S. travel advisory site). She, as a Catholic, was willing to go to India as a representative of the RCC. Where are you willing to go? It is sad that very few are willing to go to these nations that don't have much witness of the gospel.
It has nothing to do with the elevation of the Catholics, per se, but rather in comparison to her, where are the Baptists and other evangelicals who claim to have the divine love of Christ?

 

[Rebel]

No it isn't. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Not just India, but the countries all around that area: Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. These nations are desperate for missionaries. Many of them are Islamic nations, and some of them the most violent nations hostile to westerners. (Check your U.S. travel advisory site). She, as a Catholic, was willing to go to India as a representative of the RCC. Where are you willing to go? It is sad that very few are willing to go to these nations that don't have much witness of the gospel.
It has nothing to do with the elevation of the Catholics, per se, but rather in comparison to her, where are the Baptists and other evangelicals who claim to have the divine love of Christ?

Right!

James 1:22 -- But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Bumping...come guys, let us debate this.

 

[DHK]

God's love is in Christ and no one outside Christ has His love. We were chosen in Christ. God saw us in Christ from the creation of the world, He being Eternal. He sees us NOW rejoicing in heaven. His loved is upon Christ, our Shepherd, and the Shepherd's sheep. The goats do not have His love.

Let us then look at God's love. Who did he love and why? How great is his love?

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Paul goes from the lesser to the greater. He gives the example in the realm of the natural. It scarcely happens but it does happen that a good man will give his life for another. A soldier will fall on a land mine purposely giving his life for the life of another solider. A father will throw himself in front of a hail of bullets to save his wife and children. One person is offering himself as a substitute so that another good man can live. That happens. This is the highest expression of human love.
Now Paul contrasts that depth of human love, both in degree and nature with God. For God demonstrated his love in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us (Rom.5:8). Though a few people might possibly be willing to die to save the lives of some other good people, Christ went further. He went well past that.
He died for the ungodly (vs.6) [destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious –Thayer]
He died for sinners (5:8).
He even died for his enemies (510).

IOW, Christ died for all.
What does Paul say now?
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Justified by his blood; saved from wrath; will be saved by his life.
Who are the enemies? I was. You are. All in the earth are. We all are until we are reconciled with God. Writing to the Romans he says, “if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, how much more, being reconciled we shall be saved by his life. It is his life that will ensure complete and final salvation all the way to glorification.

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Since God has reconciled godless enemies to himself we should enjoy the fruits of that atonement.
We, the ungodly enemies are no reconciled. Christ died for the ungodly, and thus for all.
If he didn’t (you the enemy of God), how can you be sure he died for you and you are one of the elect? If Christ did not die for all, enemies of the cross like yourself, then how can you be sure you are one of the elect? Please answer.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Let us then look at God's love. Who did he love and why? How great is his love?

:thumbsup:

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Paul goes from the lesser to the greater. He gives the example in the realm of the natural. It scarcely happens but it does happen that a good man will give his life for another. A soldier will fall on a land mine purposely giving his life for the life of another solider. A father will throw himself in front of a hail of bullets to save his wife and children. One person is offering himself as a substitute so that another good man can live. That happens. This is the highest expression of human love.

Yes it is, mon ami. Yet, there are also suicide-bombers who willfully die for their 'god' as well. They love their 'god', but again, that is not the love I have been telling you guys about. A father dying for his child is admirable, but not divine. A husband dying in the stead of his wife is a loving gesture, but not divine love, monsieur. Until you realize there are more than one type of love, more than one type of faith, more than one 'world', expressed in the bible, you will make faux pas après faux pas.

Now Paul contrasts that depth of human love, both in degree and nature with God. For God demonstrated his love in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us (Rom.5:8). Though a few people might possibly be willing to die to save the lives of some other good people, Christ went further. He went well past that.
He died for the ungodly (vs.6) [destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious –Thayer]
He died for sinners (5:8).
He even died for his enemies (510).

IOW, Christ died for all.

Non, mon ami, non. Read the context of that chapter, mon ami. Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.[Rom. 5:1-11] The focal point is the church, the believers, the sheep, the saved, the elect, monsieur, and not the whole entire world.

What does Paul say now?
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Justified by his blood; saved from wrath; will be saved by his life.

Read above comment. Context is the believers and not everybody who ever lived.

Who are the enemies? I was. You are. All in the earth are. We all are until we are reconciled with God. Writing to the Romans he says, “if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, how much more, being reconciled we shall be saved by his life. It is his life that will ensure complete and final salvation all the way to glorification.

Written to believers. Context of that passage refers to His sheep.

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Since God has reconciled godless enemies to himself we should enjoy the fruits of that atonement.
We, the ungodly enemies are no reconciled. Christ died for the ungodly, and thus for all.
If he didn’t (you the enemy of God), how can you be sure he died for you and you are one of the elect? If Christ did not die for all, enemies of the cross like yourself, then how can you be sure you are one of the elect? Please answer.

Christ death, burial and resurrection reconciled the church, monsieur,, the sheep, and not the goats. Context of that passage, again, is His sheep.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If Christ did not die for all, enemies of the cross like yourself, then how can you be sure you are one of the elect? Please answer.

I just caught this after I finished my last post, so I will focus solely on this question. I have heard this question asked quite a bit and I shake my head at it. How do you know you are one of His? Did you choose wrongly and 'jump too quick'? I have seen this happen on more than one occasion, and in free will believing churches, too. Just because someone walked the aisle, came to an altar and prayed, raised a hand while heads were bowed with eyes closed, does not make them true Christians.


I base my walk with God solely upon scripture. Sure, I love to feel Him move within me, but I do not base my salvation on feelings, because I am sure the SDA's, the Mormons, and RCC's get the 'warm and fuzzies', too.


My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.[1 Jn 2]


I know I am His because I do not live worldly anymore. I do not do the things I once did, because I hate them. When I sin, I feel remorse and repent of it. I no longer live carnally.

 

[DHK]

I just caught this after I finished my last post, so I will focus solely on this question. I have heard this question asked quite a bit and I shake my head at it. How do you know you are one of His? Did you choose wrongly and 'jump too quick'? I have seen this happen on more than one occasion, and in free will believing churches, too. Just because someone walked the aisle, came to an altar and prayed, raised a hand while heads were bowed with eyes closed, does not make them true Christians.

I know full well what you are speaking about. A prayer doesn't save anyone. Over and over again the Bible speaks of faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It is not the prayer; but the expression of faith which comes from the heart.

I base my walk with God solely upon scripture. Sure, I love to feel Him move within me, but I do not base my salvation on feelings, because I am sure the SDA's, the Mormons, and RCC's get the 'warm and fuzzies', too.

True again. We can't count on our "feelings" for salvation.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.[1 Jn 2]


I know I am His because I do not live worldly anymore. I do not do the things I once did, because I hate them. When I sin, I feel remorse and repent of it. I no longer live carnally.

Is it possible that a reformed alcoholic can say something similar.
What you have said is close to reformation. You have made many changes in your life and therefore think you are one of the elect. Your life is changed that is for sure. But how can you know for sure you are one of the elect. Simply by a changed life. Isn't there more to it than that?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I know full well what you are speaking about. A prayer doesn't save anyone. Over and over again the Bible speaks of faith. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It is not the prayer; but the expression of faith which comes from the heart.

:thumbsup:

True again. We can't count on our "feelings" for salvation.

:thumbsup:

Is it possible that a reformed alcoholic can say something similar. What you have said is close to reformation. You have made many changes in your life and therefore think you are one of the elect. Your life is changed that is for sure. But how can you know for sure you are one of the elect. Simply by a changed life. Isn't there more to it than that?

I have no clue what you are driving at here, mon ami. I gave you a very solid biblical answer, and you still want more?

I no longer live like I used do. Before, when I sinned, I kept on sinning, showing no remorse. Yet, after the miraculous transformation of my life by God's effectual calling in my life, when I sin, I now feel remorse and repent. My life is no longer mine, it belongs to God. As Paul wrote For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God,[Col. 3:3] and also I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me,[Gal. 2:20] and then there is For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—[Rom. 6:6]and also Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires,[Gal. 5:24] and furthermore But that is not the way of life in Christ that you learned about. You heard about Christ and were taught about life in him. What you learned was the truth about Jesus. You were taught not to live the way you used to. You must get rid of your old way of life. That’s because it has been made impure by the desire for things that lead you astray. You were taught to be made new in your thinking. You were taught to start living a new life. It is created to be truly good and holy, just as God is. So each of you must get rid of your lying. Speak the truth to your neighbor. We are all parts of one body. Scripture says, “When you are angry, do not sin.” Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry. Don’t give the devil a chance. Anyone who has been stealing must never steal again. Instead, they must work. They must do something useful with their own hands. Then they will have something to give to people in need. Don’t let any evil talk come out of your mouths. Say only what will help to build others up and meet their needs. Then what you say will help those who listen. Do not make God’s Holy Spirit mourn. The Holy Spirit is the proof that you belong to God. And the Spirit is the proof that God will set you completely free. Get rid of all hard feelings, anger and rage. Stop all fighting and lying. Don’t have anything to do with any kind of hatred. Be kind and tender to one another. Forgive one another, just as God forgave you because of what Christ has done.[Eph. 4:20-32 NIRV]

I base my salvation upon God's word, and solely on God's word.


Now, you believe in free will. How do you know you did not choose foolishly and are not one of His? You could have made a false confession, too. Many will stand before Him and be really surprised at their reward given to them by Him.

I am not saying, or even implying, you are lost, monsieur. But you have no way in knowing your salvation is any more secured than mine. Both of us have to really on His word for our assurance.

 

[DHK]

I no longer live like I used do. Before, when I sinned, I kept on sinning, showing no remorse. base my salvation upon God's word, and solely on God's word.

You give a very biblical answer of the Christian life. But when and how did that Christian life begin. This is what most Calvinists do not, and some cannot answer. Like you they simply are saying there has been a change. But when did that change occur? When in your life? How did it occur?
When those questions are asked of some of the Cal's here I have received such answers like "I have been a Christian all my life." That is the same answer I receive from the unsaved, those that don't know Christ. If one cannot give a clear testimony of their salvation (not of the Christian life), then I ask again: How can they be sure they are one of the elect?

Now, you believe in free will. How do you know you did not choose foolishly and are not one of His? You could have made a false confession, too. Many will stand before Him and be really surprised at their reward given to them by Him.

As you have stated I also state,

I base my salvation upon God's word, and solely on God's word.
Now what do the promises of God say?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There are hundreds of such promises.
I can give you the year, month, date, even approximate time, the place, who was there, when someone shared with me the gospel, and I believed. It was my choice.
Inasmuch as it was my choice to choose a bride, get married (have a wedding), I also chose to be a part of the bride of Christ.
Inasmuch as I can remember the day of my marriage, who my bride is, who was there, when it was, where it was, and so many of the other details,
I can also remember the details of the day that I became a part of the bride of Christ. That too was a very important day in my life, perhaps the most important.
And for so many Calvinists to say: "I don't know of any such day" is astounding. Will they also say the same thing about their marriage? "I don't know if I am married." "I don't know if I got married, or when or where?" Astounding! Don't you think? Becoming part of the bride of Christ is far more important than the day one becomes a bride/bridegroom.

I am not saying, or even implying, you are lost, monsieur. But you have no way in knowing your salvation is any more secured than mine. Both of us have to really on His word for our assurance.

Absolutely.
But how do you know that you are one of the elect in the first place.
Religiosity is everywhere. We all agree that Biblical Christianity is in a relationship with Jesus Christ. Can the Calvinist point to when the relationship starts?

The importance of these questions are not lost on the Catholic members of our board who have repudiated their Baptist background, denied the truths of the Reformation (sola fide and the other solas, and especially justification by faith alone), and still agree with the anathemas of The Council of Trent.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You give a very biblical answer of the Christian life. But when and how did that Christian life begin. This is what most Calvinists do not, and some cannot answer. Like you they simply are saying there has been a change. But when did that change occur? When in your life? How did it occur?

I was listening to a preacher(FWB to boot) one day who was preaching about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and the fiery furnace. This caused me much concern, truly realizing where my sinful life was headed. God caused a Godly sorrow to set up in my life and drew me to Himself. I gave my life to Him and He saved me.

When those questions are asked of some of the Cal's here I have received such answers like "I have been a Christian all my life." That is the same answer I receive from the unsaved, those that don't know Christ. If one cannot give a clear testimony of their salvation (not of the Christian life), then I ask again: How can they be sure they are one of the elect?

Well, I am not one of those types.

As you have stated I also state,

I base my salvation upon God's word, and solely on God's word.
Now what do the promises of God say?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

:thumbsup:

There are hundreds of such promises.
I can give you the year, month, date, even approximate time, the place, who was there, when someone shared with me the gospel, and I believed. It was my choice.

So can I. I know the very instance He made me brand new.

Inasmuch as it was my choice to choose a bride, get married (have a wedding), I also chose to be a part of the bride of Christ.
Inasmuch as I can remember the day of my marriage, who my bride is, who was there, when it was, where it was, and so many of the other details,
I can also remember the details of the day that I became a part of the bride of Christ. That too was a very important day in my life, perhaps the most important.

I am not saying one does not choose Christ, monsieur. But unless He first chooses them, they will never choose Him.

And for so many Calvinists to say: "I don't know of any such day" is astounding. Will they also say the same thing about their marriage? "I don't know if I am married." "I don't know if I got married, or when or where?" Astounding! Don't you think? Becoming part of the bride of Christ is far more important than the day one becomes a bride/bridegroom.

No disagreement here.

Absolutely.
But how do you know that you are one of the elect in the first place.
Religiosity is everywhere. We all agree that Biblical Christianity is in a relationship with Jesus Christ. Can the Calvinist point to when the relationship starts?

I know the very moment He cleansed me from all unrighteousness, monsieur.

The importance of these questions are not lost on the Catholic members of our board who have repudiated their Baptist background, denied the truths of the Reformation (sola fide and the other solas, and especially justification by faith alone), and still agree with the anathemas of The Council of Trent.

True.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Inasmuch as it was my choice to choose a bride, get married (have a wedding), I also chose to be a part of the bride of Christ.

Now here you have brought up a salient point, a crux of the centuries long debate, the choice of being saved. For the record, I have not stated we do not choose Christ, mon ami.. However, before we can choose Him, He must first choose us. As we can both read You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.[John 15:16] Now, I know you will state that was only to the 12 Apostles, but I disagree. If God has chosen any and all without exception, then everybody will be saved, even those who were already dead before He came in the flesh, those who died minutes after He died, died during the three days His body laid in the tomb, &c. Jesus came to do the will of the Father, to seek and SAVE that which is lost, monsieur. If He seeked and saved them all, then all will be saved, if you follow the way Jesus stated it.


He chose us from the creation of the world monsieur, gave them to Jesus to die in their stead, and then one-by-one, brought each of those sheep back into the fold.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Originally Posted by DHK
Inasmuch as it was my choice to choose a bride, get married (have a wedding), I also chose to be a part of the bride of Christ.

I want us to get off of 'us' and back to the subject at hand.


Now, I wanted to add that in your schema, God only goes so far in salvation.

 

[steaver]

I just caught this after I finished my last post, so I will focus solely on this question. I have heard this question asked quite a bit and I shake my head at it. How do you know you are one of His? Did you choose wrongly and 'jump too quick'? I have seen this happen on more than one occasion, and in free will believing churches, too. Just because someone walked the aisle, came to an altar and prayed, raised a hand while heads were bowed with eyes closed, does not make them true Christians.


I base my walk with God solely upon scripture. Sure, I love to feel Him move within me, but I do not base my salvation on feelings, because I am sure the SDA's, the Mormons, and RCC's get the 'warm and fuzzies', too.


My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.[1 Jn 2]


I know I am His because I do not live worldly anymore. I do not do the things I once did, because I hate them. When I sin, I feel remorse and repent of it. I no longer live carnally.

I truly pray one does not base their position in Christ on how they obey the teachings of Jesus Christ.

You say you know your are His because of the way you live????? Because you feel remorse when you sin??? I am astonished at this declaration from any Christian......

Do we really understand what it means to be born-again?

 

[DHK]

He chose us from the creation of the world monsieur, gave them to Jesus to die in their stead, and then one-by-one, brought each of those sheep back into the fold.

I agree. He chose believers before the foundation of the world (the crux of the application of John 15:16). But you were not there. You cannot claim to know the thoughts of God before the foundation of the world. On what basis therefore can you know for sure that you were one of those that God elected, other than "you keep his commandments." John said very clearly: "Many deceivers have gone out into this world."
You are adamant that "He chose you." But how do you know?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I truly pray one does not base their position in Christ on how they obey the teachings of Jesus Christ.

You say you know your are His because of the way you live????? Because you feel remorse when you sin??? I am astonished at this declaration from any Christian......

Do we really understand what it means to be born-again?

The Apostle John wrote, ‘Whoever does not practise righteousness is not of God’ (1John 3:10). It is usual for children to resemble their parents. If a child is born who bears no similarity whatever to its father, eyebrows tend to be raised, suspicions aroused and searching questions asked. So if God is righteous, is it not somewhat surprising if He has given new life to children who retain constant sin in their lives? May we not be a little suspicious of those who claim to be Christians but whose day-to-day existence is marked by carnality and self-indulgence? Now God forbid that anyone should think that I am speaking of sinless perfection here; if there is a reader thinking to himself, “Well, amen to all this! I agree with it so much that I no longer sin at all!” Then he’s fooling himself. John himself wrote, ‘If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us’ (1John 1:8), whilst James tells us that, ‘We all stumble in many ways’ (James 3:2). What we are talking about here is a true longing for holiness; a desire to be like our Lord. We cannot lay hold of Heaven while our hands are still full of our sins. Therefore the true Christian joyfully lays down all his sins at the foot of the cross and declares with the Psalmist, ‘I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your law is within my heart’ (Psalm 40:8). That is why it is not possible for a practising thief, liar, adulterer or homosexual to be a Christian, whatever they may declare. Anyone who says to himself, “I want to become a Christian, but I won’t stop doing that…”, whatever “that” may be, is on the broad road to destruction (Matt. 7:13). We are told of Levi, the tax collector that he, ‘left all, rose up and followed [Jesus]’ (Luke 5:28). We may or may not be called to leave our jobs or our families when we become Christians, but we are certainly called to leave our sins (John 8:11) even if they are as dear to us as our right hands or right eyes (Matt. 5:29). Alas, perfect sinlessness will still elude us, but when we confess our sins, God looks into our hearts, sees our sincerity and forgives us for Christ’s sake. ‘My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous’ (1John 2:1).

Taken from my blog series on the New Birth. Read more here. https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/new-birth-9-evidences-of-the-new-birth/