The Eternal Sonship Of Jesus Christ

[tyndale1946]

In one of the other post and this is not meant throw aspersion on the brother that made the comment but to bring to us a clearer understanding as I feel scripture teaches this biblical doctrine. After further checking on what the brother said I found there is division in Evangelical Camps on this very topic. What I understand in scripture as the teaching on the Eternal Sonship Of Jesus Christ other pass off as the tradition of men. The following is what the brother said:

God is Spirit, not flesh. The sinless Word of God took upon Himself sinful flesh, withstood the temptations of that flesh and overcame it perfectly and flawlessly. Something no other human has ever been able to accomplish.

I believe according to scripture this brother is in error... Your Comments... Brother Glen

 

[Iconoclast]

In one of the other post and this is not meant throw aspersion on the brother that made the comment but to bring to us a clearer understanding as I feel scripture teaches this biblical doctrine. After further checking on what the brother said I found there is division in Evangelical Camps on this very topic. What I understand in scripture as the teaching on the Eternal Sonship Of Jesus Christ other pass off as the tradition of men. The following is what the brother said:

God is Spirit, not flesh. The sinless Word of God took upon Himself sinful flesh, withstood the temptations of that flesh and overcame it perfectly and flawlessly. Something no other human has ever been able to accomplish.

I believe according to scripture this brother is in error... Your Comments... Brother Glen

Jesus did not take on sinful flesh. He was not born of Adam.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil

He took upon himself a body of flesh that could die.

From preceptaustin;

GOD DID SENDING HIS OWN SON IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH AND [AS AN OFFERING] FOR SIN: o theos ton heautou huion pempsas (AAPMSN) en homoiomati sarkos hamartias: (Ro 8:32; John 3:14, 15, 16 17; Gal 4:4,5; 1Jn 4:10, 11, 12, 13, 14) (Ro 9:3; Mk 15:27,28; Jn 9:24) (2 Cor 5:21; Gal 3:13)

Likeness (3667) (homoíoma) means similitude or resemblance and in no way implies that one of the objects in question has been derived from the other. In the same way two men may resemble one another even though they are in no way related to one another.

Although in His incarnation Christ became fully man, He took only the outward appearance of sinful flesh, because He was completely without sin (cf Philippians 2:7, 2:8 see notes-Php 2:7, 8). Jesus, as God, took on our human nature, a nature that was susceptible to temptation. Although He was tempted, He never gave in. He never sinned.

To reiterate Jesus did not come in sinful flesh itself but in “the likeness of” sinful flesh. Jesus Christ truly came "in the flesh", but only in the "likeness" of "sinful" flesh. But by coming into the world in human form, He resembled sinful humanity. In other words, Paul does not say Jesus came "in the likeness of flesh" as if He did not have real human flesh. This is the error of Docetism, which says yes Christ was deity but that He was not really humanity but only appeared to be humanity. In short, Docetism denies the incarnation. On the other hand, Paul does not say "in sinful flesh" which would teach that He took on our fallen sin nature. No, what Paul says is that Christ possessed genuine human flesh, but it

Dr Ryrie agrees that the "The word "likeness" is crucial, for it indicates that Jesus was a true man but not a sinful man. (The Ryrie Study Bible: New American Standard Translation: 1995. Moody Publishers or Wordsearch)

Dr Henry Morris - Outwardly the flesh of (Jesus') human body was exactly like that of other human bodies, but it had been preserved free from inherent sin by His miraculous conception and virgin birth, then kept free from actual sin by His sinless life. Thus His flesh was sinless flesh. (Morris, Henry: Defenders Study Bible. Hard bound) (Free Online Version - For notes on a chapter type eg, Daniel 12 in box = "With all of these words")

:wavey::wavey::wavey:

 

[agedman]

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor. 5:21

How could he know no sin, if He conquered the sin he was supposedly born with before the death on the Cross in which He became "sin on our behalf."

That isn't logical, is it?

 

[Reformed]

The eternal generation of the Son deals specifically with the Son's particular role in the godhead. Jesus has always been the Son of God; this includes His pre-incarnate existence. There was never a time that the second person of the godhead, Jesus, was not the Son.

 

[tyndale1946]

The eternal generation of the Son deals specifically with the Son's particular role in the godhead. Jesus has always been the Son of God; this includes His pre-incarnate existence. There was never a time that the second person of the godhead, Jesus, was not the Son.

I agree he was Gods Son before he was sent!... The Son in his Divinity took upon himself Sinless Humanity... My understanding of scripture teaches nothing else!... Brother Glen

 

[HankD]

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

"And the word was made flesh" Jesus was born of woman (namely Mary who was a virgin) Apparently the "sin nature" is passed on through the male. Jesus was however mortal in His humanity and subject to death.

Jesus Himself said John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Nothing, zero, zilch, nada.


HankD

 

[tyndale1946]

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

"And the word was made flesh" Jesus was born of woman (namely Mary who was a virgin) Apparently the "sin nature" is passed on through the male. Jesus was however mortal in His humanity and subject to death.

Jesus Himself said John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Nothing, zero, zilch, nada.


HankD

In response to your post I will add these verses

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father... Brother Glen

 

[Aaron]

Apparently the "sin nature" is passed on through the male. Jesus was however mortal in His humanity and subject to death.

Sin is not a physical trait. It's not in the genes.

The manner of His birth was a sign, not a necessity.

 

[Aaron]

Quoted above:
Dr Henry Morris - Outwardly the flesh of (Jesus') human body was exactly like that of other human bodies, but it had been preserved free from inherent sin by His miraculous conception and virgin birth, then kept free from actual sin by His sinless life. Thus His flesh was sinless flesh. (Morris, Henry: Defenders Study Bible. Hard bound) (Free Online Version - For notes on a chapter type eg, Daniel 12 in box = "With all of these words")

An understanding of when flesh is used to speak of muscle or affections is needed. Is the muscle of my tongue really the unruly evil, or is it referenced merely as the tool employed to unleash the wickedness in one's heart?

So, the meat and bone and blood is not in view when the Bible speaks of "sinful flesh," but only that which animates it. The contents, not the vessel.

Some of the thought in this thread is bordering on superstition. Christ's body was physical, and fully and wholly human. No one's body is sinful. His sinlessness is by virtue of his Person, not his earthly heritage. His body could have been prepared "in the family way," and He would still be as sinless and as impeccable. His plasma, platelets and hemoglobin don't cleanse us, but His blood does.

 

[HankD]

Sin is not a physical trait. It's not in the genes.

The manner of His birth was a sign, not a necessity.

Aaron, what is your take on Romans 5:12

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.

Not future tense "all will sin" but aorist (past tense) "all sinned".

Just curious Aaron.

HankD

 

[Aaron]

I believe Romans 5:12 whole heartedly, and I believe in original sin, but I don't believe sin comes through the genes anymore than do our souls.

Our flesh and bone are neither evil nor sinful. That which animates them is. And when one dies, every atom of every molecule is still in place, but that which animated them is not. It's gone to Heaven or Hell.

 

[HankD]

I believe Romans 5:12 whole heartedly, and I believe in original sin, but I don't believe sin comes through the genes anymore than do our souls.

Our flesh and bone are neither evil nor sinful. That which animates them is. And when one dies, every atom of every molecule is still in place, but that which animated them is not. It's gone to Heaven or Hell.

I believe it's part of our nature. Don't know how sin and death are transmitted (or as the scripture says - passed through us) and I believe the virgin birth (conception) of Christ had something to do with his impeccability.

I'll ask Him in the bye-and-bye.

HankD

 

[JamesL]

I believe it's part of our nature. Don't know how sin and death are transmitted (or as the scripture says - passed through us) and I believe the virgin birth (conception) of Christ had something to do with his impeccability.

I'll ask Him in the bye-and-bye.

HankD

God told Adam "cursed is the ground because of you"

The ground is what Adam was formed from. The very stuff we're made of is cursed. Sin-wrecked.

I don't believe the virgin birth had anything to do with Christ's impeccability because He is, was, and always will be the Word of God, eternally impeccable.

Jesus is the Son, or Heir, of God. He was to have no earthly father so that no man would leave an inheritance to Him. So for Him to be firstborn, yet without an earthly father, made it necessary for His mother to be a virgin

 

[OldRegular]

God told Adam "cursed is the ground because of you"

The ground is what Adam was formed from. The very stuff we're made of is cursed. Sin-wrecked.

I don't believe the virgin birth had anything to do with Christ's impeccability because He is, was, and always will be the Word of God, eternally impeccable.

Jesus is the Son, or Heir, of God. He was to have no earthly father so that no man would leave an inheritance to Him. So for Him to be firstborn, yet without an earthly father, made it necessary for His mother to be a virgin

You might want to rethink some of the above in light of Scripture.

Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[JamesL]

You might want to rethink some of the above in light of Scripture.

Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

???

Where do you see any conflict with what I wrote and the scriptures you quoted?

 

[Darrell C]

In one of the other post and this is not meant throw aspersion on the brother that made the comment but to bring to us a clearer understanding as I feel scripture teaches this biblical doctrine. After further checking on what the brother said I found there is division in Evangelical Camps on this very topic. What I understand in scripture as the teaching on the Eternal Sonship Of Jesus Christ other pass off as the tradition of men. The following is what the brother said:

God is Spirit, not flesh. The sinless Word of God took upon Himself sinful flesh, withstood the temptations of that flesh and overcame it perfectly and flawlessly. Something no other human has ever been able to accomplish.

I believe according to scripture this brother is in error... Your Comments... Brother Glen

I myself do not embrace the Doctrine of Eternal Son-ship, but that His Son-ship applies more directly to the Incarnation. We see it indicated that as the Son there is place in time when that began:


Psalm 2:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.


I do not see my view as impacting my view as a Trinitarian, as the Trinity is seen before the Incarnation. We recognize that God is God despite how He manifests to man, and my view places how I understand God in a context of temporal contrasted with the Eternal itself. Son-ship is a term given us that we might understand God manifesting unto man, particularly when He takes upon Himself the flesh of man, which flesh we understand Him to still inhabit.

Great topic for discussion, though.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I believe Romans 5:12 whole heartedly, and I believe in original sin, but I don't believe sin comes through the genes anymore than do our souls.

Our flesh and bone are neither evil nor sinful. That which animates them is. And when one dies, every atom of every molecule is still in place, but that which animated them is not. It's gone to Heaven or Hell.

I would agree with this, as I see sin as the result of being out of relationship with God, which was the result of Adam's sin and necessitated Christ's Ministry of Reconciliation.

As natural men we had no capacity for righteousness in relation to God, and as regenerate we have been given the capacity for righteousness for one reason, which is the New Birth by which we are new creations indwelt by God:


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


While Nationally Israel is yet to be reconciled, we have had bestowed upon us the promises made unto them, as have all those of Israel who have believed.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

???

Where do you see any conflict with what I wrote and the scriptures you quoted?

You said Jesus is the heir of GOD. Nonsense!

 

[Darrell C]

You said Jesus is the heir of GOD. Nonsense!

Not completely...


Romans 8:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


God bless.

 

[percho]

You said Jesus is the heir of GOD. Nonsense!

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by, Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,[/B] by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:1,2
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom 8:18

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

Joint heirs?

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, John 1:14
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 --- Again - And the Word was made flesh,

the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; Rev 13:8
But with the precious blood (Wherein is life, soul living) of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19,20

Before anything was created, who/what was going to die. Why would God be manifested, subject to death and this determined before the foundation of the world? See 1 John 3:8 How? Heb 2:14

Why, before the foundation of the world, did God give the promise of the hope of eternal life. What/who, of worth, was going to be obedient unto death?

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead, dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

Who and who only to date has inherited, the promise of God?

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 13:33-35


Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21

What is the glory God, the Father, gave the Son, after the resurrection, of witch Jesus prayed for? Life from the dead, eternal life?

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Heb 5:5,9,10 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Heb 7:14-17 Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.