When one says God created evil they are making Him a sinner.
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John Piper
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It is not an attribute of God. Think about it.
Suppose the U.S. (creates) makes the nuclear bomb (evil) and then gives it to Iran.
Then suppose Iran uses this exact nuclear bomb to destroy Israel (to carry out its own evil purposes).
Is not the U.S. culpable in the evil that Iran has done?
Though Iran is the one doing the evil, the one "creating the evil" is just as guilty, for he gave him the means to do the evil.
To who? To you?
So then you're saying Isaiah and even Jeremiah made God out to be a sinner. God doesn't need anyone to defend his holiness.
God being the source of everything including evil doesn't take away from his holiness at all.
Yes. :applause:
Yes I did. I also said that the meanings of words change. Anger has many meanings. In today's lingo "anger" is sin.
God does not lose his temper.
God is always in control of his emotions.
God is not a "hothead."
God is not "ready to explode at any moment."
God does not hold a big club over your head ready to beat you every time you do wrong.
IOW, God is not a God of anger, but a God of love.
For his dealings with Satan read the prologue to the book of Job, where God and Satan are having a discussion.
In the end God will throw Satan into the Lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet already are. But there is no indication that he will do so in anger, while "blowing his top," losing his temper," or "his cool," etc.
It will be a calm deliberate act. There will be no anger involved.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
We all agree that he is the Creator. Evil is the absence of good. He created all things, looked upon His creation and pronounced that all was "very good." There was no "evil."
None disagrees with God being love, but let's not toss the baby out with the bathwater, monsieur. God has been angry with sinners and will continue to do so until sin has finally been eradicated on the day of Judgment. You have to account for His other attributes as well.
The bible says to be angry and sin not, so that shows we can be angry, yet not sin. Now, much of the time when we get angry, we do sin, but not every time. My parents got angry with me when I was growing up, and when they chastened me, it was out of love and not anger. That is how God deals with His children, His elect, His chosen, His sheep, &c. But when God gets angry, He has an holy anger, an holy wrath, where He does not 'fly off the handle' monsieur.
Let me clarify my stance, mon ami. All the info we have in regards to the bible is from 'In the beginning.' We do not know what transpired before then, just snippets. When God created Satan...I do not believe for one second that Satan is Lucifer and vice versa...but that's another topic altogether. Now, when God created Satan, He knew what he was going to do, along with those other angels who fell with him. So this had to be part of His plan, or He would not have created Satan to begin with. When He placed Adam in the Garden, He also put the tree of knowledge of good and evil there, and also allowed the serpent to gain entrance in there, too. So that too, had to be part of His plan. So through secondary means, He created evil.
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Lets see:
1) God predestines everything, including every evil thought and act.
2) God is not the author of evil.
3) Cognitive dissonance anyone?
The actual biblical position is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God is not the author of the evil men do. God's actions which adversely affect men are often seen as evil by the men adversely affected. But, from God's perspective, the harsh environment which brings death and destruction to many, is not evil for its purpose is good, to encourage people to seek God as a refuge.
1) God predestines everything, including every evil thought and act.
2) God is not the author of evil.
3) Cognitive dissonance anyone?
The actual biblical position is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God is not the author of the evil men do. God's actions which adversely affect men are often seen as evil by the men adversely affected. But, from God's perspective, the harsh environment which brings death and destruction to many, is not evil for its purpose is good, to encourage people to seek God as a refuge.
This thread was NOT an Arm/Cal debate!
Some seem to think all debate must have some Arm/Cal connection.
The OP may have used two Cal. thinkers to open the topic, but as shown by the posters, the thinking that God "created evil" spreads across a wide spectrum of believers and not focused solely upon one scheme or view.
It is really sad that the instruction given in THIS thread will be missed by a greater number of readers who will never visit it in the pigeon hole some authority relegated it too.
It was wrong to be moved, and in my opinion should be moved back to Baptist Theology section.
Not that my opinion has any merit or weight.
:tonofbricks:
Some seem to think all debate must have some Arm/Cal connection.
The OP may have used two Cal. thinkers to open the topic, but as shown by the posters, the thinking that God "created evil" spreads across a wide spectrum of believers and not focused solely upon one scheme or view.
It is really sad that the instruction given in THIS thread will be missed by a greater number of readers who will never visit it in the pigeon hole some authority relegated it too.
It was wrong to be moved, and in my opinion should be moved back to Baptist Theology section.
Not that my opinion has any merit or weight.
:tonofbricks:
I'm still waiting for a response to my question(s) that I've repeated a couple of times now. Now that it's in the Cal/Arm section maybe some Calvinist will take a shot at it.
John Calvin = Forerunner of John Piper.
Not certain Calvinists would want me in their camp, however, rather than dragging through the whole thread, would you allow me to press you to restate your questions?
(Regarding Israel's repeated rebellion) If "nothing happens but what God has knowingly and willingly decreed", how can Israel be held responsible for something God made happen?
“In vain I punished your people;
they did not respond to correction.
Your sword has devoured your prophets
like a ravenous lion." --Jer. 2:30
So in this case God caused Israel to rebel (remember, nothing happens without God decreeing it), then he punished them for rebelliousness, yet they did not repent.
God punished rebellious Israel because He wanted Israel to repent. Under Calvinism, only God can grant repentance. Yet, still they did not repent. So how can Israel not repent when God is the author of repentance and He wanted them to repent?
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There are basic problems with the parameters of the question(s).
- You assume that because God created all things that those things could not be corrupted.
- You assume that because God decrees, it is applicable to all creation.
- You assume that what was pre-creation is also applied to creation and after.
When that thinking is realigned, you will find the answers given by others will be appropriate.
One other matter though that seems to be basic to your question, and that is on the matter of fairness.
In a sense you are asking, "Is God fair in ..."
Let's replace "fair" with "just."
Is God just in condemning a people who He does not decree to be saved? (this is your basic question - in my opinion).
There are a number of Scriptures such as John 3: "... condemned already..." which show the natural state of humankind.
There are abundant Scriptures to show (see John 1, Romans 1) that it is not God's fault, but humankind purposefully turn away from God. Not just at the garden, but in every heart that has been born of man and woman.
So, in short answer, yes God is just (fair) in decreeing those that are his (do not turn from the light - John 1) to become His and those that do not embrace the light and continue in turning from the light "are condemned already." The condemnation is upon us all from birth.
God is also decreed that Israel is His, rebellious as they are, He will redeem them.
That is God's choice.
The natural man would ask, why then God is unfair! Why doesn't he decree salvation for all?
Two reasons come to mind:
- He is God, He knows what He is doing, and what He desires to decree He has the authority and perfect right. Again, how dare the clay ask the potter why did you make me a toilet when you could have made me a sink is not a question appropriate for the Master Creator.
- God isn't obligated to be fair in the sense of all for one and one for all, or treating everyone the same. God is obligated to be fair in the meaning of just and righteous. Again, the kosmos is condemned, but God decrees light and life. That untold numbers reject that decree, turn and hide from the light, even construct schemes of denouncement for the light and any bearers of the light, does not obligate God in any manner to redeem such.
Calvinism basically states that humankind have no response to God. They are born that way. That God presents light to all. Those that do not turn and shun the light are the redeemed. This is the teaching of John 1.
What some Calvinists believe is that God gives light to only some - that is wrong and an affront to John 1.
The right to salvation is not based on what a man can or cannot do, rather on upon the response to light. The death of Christ is not only efficient and sufficient, but effective to that person who does not shun the light, and only that person. (limited atonement)
What some Non-Calvinists believe is that God lifts a person from a state of the dead into some ethereal state (prevenient or preceding grace) in which there is a freedom of choice and will to accept or reject - that is wrong and an affront to John 1, Matthew 25, Eph. 5 ....
What does take place in the natural heathen is described in Romans 1 as a progression of the mind and heart of those rejecting God's light, so God confirms the rejection by giving the people over to heathen hedonism.
This is a long post, and I will leave off with this reference point.
God is not unjust, but the justifier. As Romans 3 states:
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Do not neglect to go back and look at what the "This" is in reference.
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That question was answered...you either didn't like the answer or didn't understand the answer.
I'm simply quoting John Calvin. There is no wiggle room in what he says.
“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
I'm simply quoting John Calvin. I said nothing about fairness. Nothing.
You continue to frame the question as something other than my original question so you can answer it in the manner you choose. This is the classic strawman response.
Agreed.
According to Calvin they are doing what God has caused them to do:
“Thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)
“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)
This subject matter is not even discussed in this entire thread or in my posts.
No, I'm asking:
(Regarding Israel's repeated rebellion) If "nothing happens but what God has knowingly and willingly decreed", how can Israel be held responsible for something God made happen?
“In vain I punished your people;
they did not respond to correction.
Your sword has devoured your prophets
like a ravenous lion." --Jer. 2:30
So in this case God caused Israel to rebel (remember, nothing happens without God decreeing it), then he punished them for rebelliousness, yet they did not repent.
God punished rebellious Israel because He wanted Israel to repent. Under Calvinism, only God can grant repentance. Yet, still they did not repent. So how can Israel not repent when God is the author of repentance and He wanted them to repent?
<snip rest of off topic stuff>
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Please link to where this question was answered.
My apologies for not attending to the questions appropriately.
Let me start again.
You must know that not all "calvinists" and more my own thinking would agree with all that John Calvin wrote, and constructed. He was a product of the age in which he lived, the political, emotional, economic and such structures that impact us all. So, some of my answers will no doubt be smudged with this age's imprint.
Job was asked, by God, questions about the creatures and other parts of the creation. The "secret counsel of God" is well aware and decreed by God. The natural order of animals in heat, birthing, heavenly bodies moving about... are all decreed by God. That there is nothing that God is unknowing and ultimately in control.
A good question might be, "Can the decrees of God be corrupted and changed?" The answer is of course - that is what the fall, the flood, the state of Israel ... are all storied for example and our benefit. God created knowing and willingly decrees all, but then iniquity was found.
God knows the hearts and thoughts of every person. Nothing escapes His understanding. All of that which is ungodly are "held in by the hand of God."
God knew pharaoh's heart was already hard, and he confirmed that hardness. Each judgment of God upon Egypt was directed toward demonstrating that God was the only true and just God. All the planning and perpetration of pharaoh was no doubt in place (though the Scriptures are not specific) that God's people have the desire to move, and be given all needed to move, and be allowed to move from the land of the heathen. Pharaoh was "forced" into what God considered best.
Another example is Job, who the enemy had to seek permission from God to even approach bringing calamity.
Another example is Peter, whom Christ stated while he was yet young what would happen when he was old.
How can Romans 1 be correct if God did not have authority over the mind?
Though I would not have stated what Calvin did in the terms he stated, it is never the less a restatement of the principles of the authority of God over the whole creation. Either God is sovereign over all, or there will be some area or some one that can have an excuse at the judgment.
God decreed that Israel was His people. He did not decree that they would not sin and be held accountable for their rebellion.
Perhaps you are suggesting that God making a decree translates into all aspects from that moment forward will be without failure or fault.
That just isn't part of the judgment and conditions of creation and the heavenly after the fall.
God decrees that the sun will rise and set, the moon will be the lesser light, that darkness would be separated from light. But, that doesn't mean they will not eventually fail and the light flame out.
That is the result of the fall.
Let me start again.
You must know that not all "calvinists" and more my own thinking would agree with all that John Calvin wrote, and constructed. He was a product of the age in which he lived, the political, emotional, economic and such structures that impact us all. So, some of my answers will no doubt be smudged with this age's imprint.
Job was asked, by God, questions about the creatures and other parts of the creation. The "secret counsel of God" is well aware and decreed by God. The natural order of animals in heat, birthing, heavenly bodies moving about... are all decreed by God. That there is nothing that God is unknowing and ultimately in control.
A good question might be, "Can the decrees of God be corrupted and changed?" The answer is of course - that is what the fall, the flood, the state of Israel ... are all storied for example and our benefit. God created knowing and willingly decrees all, but then iniquity was found.
God knows the hearts and thoughts of every person. Nothing escapes His understanding. All of that which is ungodly are "held in by the hand of God."
God knew pharaoh's heart was already hard, and he confirmed that hardness. Each judgment of God upon Egypt was directed toward demonstrating that God was the only true and just God. All the planning and perpetration of pharaoh was no doubt in place (though the Scriptures are not specific) that God's people have the desire to move, and be given all needed to move, and be allowed to move from the land of the heathen. Pharaoh was "forced" into what God considered best.
Another example is Job, who the enemy had to seek permission from God to even approach bringing calamity.
Another example is Peter, whom Christ stated while he was yet young what would happen when he was old.
How can Romans 1 be correct if God did not have authority over the mind?
Though I would not have stated what Calvin did in the terms he stated, it is never the less a restatement of the principles of the authority of God over the whole creation. Either God is sovereign over all, or there will be some area or some one that can have an excuse at the judgment.
God decreed that Israel was His people. He did not decree that they would not sin and be held accountable for their rebellion.
Perhaps you are suggesting that God making a decree translates into all aspects from that moment forward will be without failure or fault.
That just isn't part of the judgment and conditions of creation and the heavenly after the fall.
God decrees that the sun will rise and set, the moon will be the lesser light, that darkness would be separated from light. But, that doesn't mean they will not eventually fail and the light flame out.
That is the result of the fall.
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