Featured In which "Millennial Camp" was ....

First, I read and study the Bible. Concerning Pentecost, Ryrie, etc. I don't know exactly what their views are because I haven't either read them or haven't looked at them in many years and don't remember what they teach. It is irrelevant to me.

"The Church Age"? Perhaps this "Age of Grace" may be a better term. I believe in "churches" not a "Church." That is why I don't believe in the doctrine you and O.R. keep saying I espouse. There is no "Church," only "churches." However, there will be a time when Christ will come for "His Bride." As the disciples saw him go, he shall so come again (Acts one), and that is not in the splendor and glory of His Father with the holy angels as it describes elsewhere--thus two different events.

What is Israel doing now.
1. She is coming from all corners of the earth migrating back to her native land.
2. She is attempting to rebuild the Temple.
3. She is attracting more anti-semitic sentiment than at any other time in history with the possible exception of the holocaust.
4. Russia has now entered into Syria. For what purpose?

Israel is one of the tiniest nations on the face of the earth... only about 8,000 sq. miles, less in area than New Jersey, and able to fit into the state of Florida seven times.

One might ask the question:
"How can the 13 million Jews in the world (almost 5 million fewer than they were in 1939!) be blamed for the problems of the 250 million Arabs, who have brotherly ties to 1.4 billion Muslims worldwide?"
http://www.mefacts.com/cached.asp?x_id=10190

Yet it is surrounded by enemy nations ready to attack and exterminate her at any time. At the time that it does, or near that time, Christ will come. Israel will then turn to Christ as their Messiah. Israel, as a nation, will be saved.
Soon after that the Millennial Kingdom will be set up, with Christ sitting on "the Throne of David," another promise yet to be fulfilled. The curse on the earth will be removed. The judgment of nations will take place.

These promises cannot be ignored. God does not lie. To allegorize the promises of scripture away is simply to deny His Word.

 

First, I know you are not trying to equate those considered "righteous" and of faith under the Law to those who have received the Revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, right? If you would clear that up that will help.

Now assuming that you do not feel that men were eternally saved through the Law, which Paul states did not bring life, but death (because no-one, from Day One...kept it), then we have a bit of a problem: this would mean that God was not completely honest with Israel. The reason would be because no-one was eternally saved, nor eternally redeemed, all who died prior to the New Covenant's establishment are a separate group. And that is what you are doing, while at the same time trying to equate the two Ages.

Above we see Gentiles who have never heard the Law obeying the will of God, which denies your view that "the Jews had an advantage."

If anything, the Jews were at a disadvantage for the specific reason that one is more responsible if one has been given more, and that was the case with Israel.

Now, I ask you, here we see Jews and Gentiles placed on an equal plane in regards to responsibility to God (the Gentile having the Law written on their hearts), so tell me, were these Gentiles born again believers trusting in Christ?

The answer is no, they could not possibly have any clue about Christ if they did not have the Law (and I refer not just to the Covenant but the Word of God as well).

Again, because of what they had they were more responsible to obey. It is an advantage having specific revelation as they had, particularly when it brought them into relationship with God, as opposed to the Gentiles.

Now tell me whether Paul is speaking in a past tense here? Tell me if it is Israel Nationally or Spiritually in view?

He is speaking present tense about his countrymen, and specifically those descended from Isaac.

Where do you see them having vanished forever as you suggest? Why would Paul want to see those who didn't exist anymore saved?

I would agree with that, on a National Basis, however, that doesn't mean God will nullify His promises to her.

And when Paul makes it clear God has not, as you have, cast away His People...


Romans 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,


The question posed is simple, and the answer is simple.


11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


This has the meaning of "falling" as it is used in regards to a house built on sand rather than rock.

What he makes clear is that it is not a matter of Gentiles only who are saved at this time, but Gentile Inclusion. Both Jew and Greek (Gentile) are saved in this Age. Paul knew that, but, here he is speaking about Israel on a National Basis, which is how Israel has always been distinguished (with Gentiles).

We wouldn't think the Jews in view were saved Jews would we?


19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


Two things I would mention here: first, we see Gentiles being grafted into the Tree that represents the people of God. Israel, as a nation, were the branches. Secondly, keep in mind it is the same Tree.

That Tree is the provision of God and the branches are the People of God. If we make this refer to individual salvation we err on a number of levels. We know that in view is not the Covenant of Law, for the Covenant of Law is not the Tree. When Israel was given what might be the equivalent of the strong delusion of 2 Thessalonians 2...


8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.


...which took place when Christ came and particularly in relation to the New Covenant, they were not under the New Covenant. Gentiles are not grafted into the Covenant of Law, so we have to look at a different conclusion as to what the Tree is.

The best answer is always going to be that spiritual household of the faithful.

Now despite the fact there were men who were declared just and faithful, truly the people of God, they were still not in relationship with God through the New Covenant. What that means is that outside of New Covenant relationship, no-one had been eternally indwelt, eternally redeemed, and in relationship with God through the provision of the New Covenant. Not one person trusted in Christ's death, and not one person was a Christian.

And here we see Paul stating that they, as a Nation, not individuals, will be grafted in again through belief.

But you realize that it is unbelievers that are cast out, right?

Not Israel as a nation.

And you realize this is a text that refers to the Kingdom Christ will establish, right?

Haven't seen Abraham eating and drinking around any tables here on earth yet, have you?

You care to explain exactly how the "nations have taken their place and are reclining with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?"

This will not take place until the Millennial Kingdom.


Matthew 8:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


I could spend several pages on this one point alone, lol. The children here are the Children of Israel. Now do we make this mean all will end up in Hell? That is the place of outer darkness. That is where the weeping and gnashing of teeth will take place.

And we see that fulfilled in a temporal sense when the Lord returns, it is the Sheep and Goat Judgment of Matthew 25, where, after being told that all are gathered, those who are goats, unbelievers, are cast into everlasting punishment, which begins through physical death, where they then reside in Hades, and are then resurrected after the thousand year Kingdom.

So where are the nations reclining at the table with Abraham?


Continued...

 

That is a good point, now I challenge you to take that further and explain why immortality is not in view.

The reason is that the Old Testament economies were physical/temporal as contrasted with conditions under the New Covenant which are spiritual/Eternal.

Men did not receive eternal life through the Law, and that was the last economy the People of God were under. Nor would we impose eternal life as a result of being in Covenant with God through prior Covenants.

Eternal Life began when the Bread of Heaven actually came down to bestow that eternal life.

And you think this refers to the Tree of Romans 11? How could that be if Gentiles are being grafted into it?

Their house was already desolate.

This does not negate the fact that God has not cast away His People, and that they can be grafted back in through belief.

We see them named Tribe by Tribe (with the exception of Dan) in Revelation. It is during the Tribulation this takes place.

And we see that God will bring them back into the Tree...


Romans 11:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God will save Israel on a National Basis. Blindness in part has happened to Israel, and there is a day when that blindness will end.

Now "all Israel" is saved, not meaning every Jew, but all who are part of that Tree, the People of God. But, we see that at this time, and it cannot be mistaken, ungodliness will be turned away from...

...Jacob.

Now you find anywhere in Scripture where you might construe this to include Gentiles.

Be glad to look at it.

Speaks of the literal city, and this will take place in the Tribulation.

Which brings us to another indication that National Israel plays a part in the Tribulation:


Revelation 12

King James Version (KJV)

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


During the Tribulation the Woman flees into the wilderness. This is clearly Israel.

Christ came forth from Israel, not Gentiles, not from the spiritual Jews, not from a general People of God.

Israel.

Most of us consider the Israel that happens to be in Israel to be Israel.

And you are not the only one that wants them gone forever, this is a continual problem the People of God have dealt with from the beginning.

But, they will be the people who heed the warnings and instruction of Christ given in Matthew 24. There will be a Temple in place and Antichrist will stand in that Temple:


2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


This correlates to Christ's warning to flee, just as Revelation 12 tells us they will do...


Matthew 24:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Was this taught to Gentiles? No.

Is the Gospel of Christ in view in v.14? No.

It is the Gospel of the Kingdom which is predominant in all of Christ's teaching. This Kingdom will not be entered by anyone not born again.

The Antichrist makes this specific to the Kingdom which Revelation teaches follows the Tribulation.

All of Israel will be saved because all unbelievers among her will be destroyed during and at the end of the Tribulation (the Sheep and Goat Judgment).

We don't take Romans 11 out of it's context which begins in Chapter 9. It is speaking of National Israel throughout, and they are the people Paul desires to see saved.


God bless.

 

The Amil position is actually a position adopted by many reformed to counter Catholicism premillennial view. The irony is that now both of them in large number take this view, which is not a view taught by either the Word of God or the Early Church. The pre-millennial view was dominant.


God bless.

 

Paul makes this clear:




Romans 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,


11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.



Romans 11:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Israel as a nation is in view, that is consistent beginning in Chapter 9. They have been blinded to the truth in this Age, but that does not restrain all Jews from being saved in this Age, and Paul points out that God always has a remnant despite times in Israel's history where they were out of His will.

This is the same condition they were in when the Lord ministered to them, the distinction being made at the point when the Gospel is revealed.

He came unto His own, and own received Him not. That is why their blindness as a nation is distinct from their sin under the Law.


God bless.

 

I'm sorry to read this, brother, especially as I have been blessed by so many of your posts in the past.

I am no fan of the Church of Rome (to put it mildly), but if we are going blindly to reject all her beliefs then we shall have to cease being Trinitarian.

 

The RCC was Amil.
Dennis Lawson in his paper states:

https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj7g.pdf

It seems to be a fairly good overview.

 

No.

You think He who stepped down from ivory palaces lost His temper at a tree?

 

Not my view. It's plainly articulated in the scriptures.

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much every way... Ro 3

 

His promises to her are a long done deal from of old.

43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Josh 21

And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. Josh 23:14

Blessed be Jehovah, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by Moses his servant. 1 Ki 8:56

 

There's no doubt you could.

 

It is clear who received judgment: branches.

Now address your view that the Lord has uprooted the Tree, rather than cut branches out and grafted wild branches into the same Tree.


God bless.

 

I agree with Scripture's view concerning their advantage, which is one dealing with the revelation they had been given, which we could view as a disadvantage in perspective to judgment, which is the underlying context of this discussion we are having.

I hoped to make that clear in saying...

You are viewing their advantage in a salvific context rather than the context which is clearly spelled out. I point out this context in mention of what is also said about Gentiles.

So your "advantage" is bogus.

Those Gentiles would be considered spiritual Children, which is the argument many amillennials try to say is all that existed under that economy, but that is not the case...

...there is clearly a National Israel which God and the Bible deal with in a large part of the Old Testament.

And that is the Israel in view in Romans 9-11, as well as Matthew 24-25, and in Revelation 12.

Those who flee according to Christ's warning and are provided shelter for 3 1/2 years refers to those of "the Woman," Israel, who become saved in the Tribulation. Israel is a valid Nation today, and will be the target of Antichrist's wrath.

So again, your view of the Jews disadvantage does not correlate to what is being taught here.


God bless.

 

Did you not catch the NO to your question?

Not my view. It's plainly articulated in the scriptures that the whole tree withered.

And seeing a fig tree by the way side, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only; and he saith unto it, Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever. And immediately the fig tree withered away. Mt 21:19

As in:

For if they do these things in the green tree, what shall be done in the dry? Lu 23:31

 

and should not I have regard for Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? Jonah 4:11

Jews definitely had the advantage.

Do you also apply this reasoning of your's to the gospel? Those that know the gospel are at a disadvantage?

 

The tree in Romans 11 is not an earthly Israel. The tree is the Household of Faith. The root of this tree is Christ. Why were the branches cut off? Unbelief. Abraham was called being uncircumcised. He paid tithes to a Gentile priest, and received a blessing of the same. Gentiles received the greatest miracles of Christ. The greatest faith He found on earth was in a Roman centurion.

The just shall live by faith.

Now, the Temple. What does the standing of an earthly temple signify?

 

Great proof-text, and might be considered relevant...if it wasn't for the fact that the Lord made promise after this.

And just as Scripture testifies in your proof-texts...God will bring every promise to bear in the lives of Israel.

Here is the one which so many stumble at:


Jeremiah 31:31-34

King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I'm not sure why you would ignore what He states here, and emphasize that which destroys your argument:

not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof.


The Promises were still valid in Paul's day:


Romans 9:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;


Again, Israel is in view, contrasted with those who are not sons of Isaac. It speaks of a direct lineage of which Gentiles are not included, the promises were made to them, and again...


not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof.

Again, you neglect those promises that follow after, namely...


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


The promises in view in your proof-text was fulfilled, however, those promises do not have an eternal nor salvific context. They were brought into the land, as a Nation...

...not individually.

Those who were redeemed from Egypt fell in the wilderness in unbelief.

That did not negate God's promises to Israel, nor shall the actions of her people ever negate the promises of God.

And we can see in Prophecy, both Old and New, that is still the same case. God will redeem Israel:


Luke 21:27-28

King James Version (KJV)

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Maybe you can explain why the Lord was teaching Gentiles concerning Antichrist and the Temple, and how it is that in teaching Jews He was supposedly not teaching Jews?

Explain how the Antichrist defiling the Temple as taught by Daniel, Paul, and John...has been fulfilled as all prophecy and promise is, to the jot and tittle.

Explain how Israel was saved for 3 1/2 years in the wilderness.

Explain how they were brought back into their own land.

Explain how they have been cleansed, rather than given blindness in part.

But first, explain how you justify using a proof-text prior to all promises of God and think that applies to all prophecy and promise that comes after that time.

You might also like to explain how, when trying to present a "spiritual framework," you see the promises stop short with the temporal fulfillment in the Old Testament.

My friend, if you would address these issues in your heart you would see there are some major problems with your view.


God bless.

 

I guess you refuse to address the point.

You are merging teachings to create a view.

Explain, if "It's plainly articulated in the scriptures that the whole tree withered," exactly what it is that the wild branches are being grafted into.

The Tree of Romans 11 is not the fig tree of the parable.


God bless.

 

Again your "disadvantage" is bogus: this refers to children.

You are trying to give the Jews an advantage which was not there. Again, the advantage was not salvific, for God justified all men of faith even prior to the Law being given.

What is ironic is that your Theology hinges on this very issue, that the People of God are the Israel of God, and that this has nothing to do with heritage.

As I said, in a context of judgment...absolutely.

And where I would differ from many is that I recognize that Scripture teaches one can come to know the Gospel and reject it, as the false teachers of 2 Peter 2 did (and we apply that to this entire Age, for it is prophetic, i.e., "There were false prophets, and there will be false teachers.")

There is a clear teaching in Scripture that those who reject the Gospel will be judged more severely than those who rejected the Law:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


And when it comes to those who have been born again, we see responsibility rise according to knowledge:


James 3:1

King James Version (KJV)

3 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.


This is the context of the "advantage" the Jews had, it is not a salvific context, and you're trying to make it one to justify your position that the Israel in view "is gone forever."

Again, the Law did not provide life, only death. Only Christ provided life, and that life will be bestowed upon National Israel, when the blindness is removed, and they are ushered into the Kingdom.

It is then that they will recline with Abraham. "All" Israel will be saved because not one unbeliever will enter into that Kingdom, for things which offend will be cast away.


God bless.

 

Cool. Please tell. You've caused me to do some searching:

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 And he spake this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit thereon, and found none.
7 And he said unto the vinedresser, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why doth it also cumber the ground?
8 And he answering saith unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 and if it bear fruit thenceforth, well; but if not, thou shalt cut it down. Lu 13

Eternal consequences is not the intention in 'ye shall all in like manner perish', and, 'ye shall all likewise perish'. This is in reference to the destruction of the temple and priesthood and great wrath about to be poured out on 'this people' of that generation.