Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
The fact that both Jew and Gentile are saved under the New Covenant denies a "switch."
This suggests that what occurs in salvation in Christ occurred under the Law and prior economies, and that thee is simply a different recipient.
That is not the case.
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2
First, I know you are not trying to equate those considered "righteous" and of faith under the Law to those who have received the Revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, right? If you would clear that up that will help.
Now assuming that you do not feel that men were eternally saved through the Law, which Paul states did not bring life, but death (because no-one, from Day One...kept it), then we have a bit of a problem: this would mean that God was not completely honest with Israel. The reason would be because no-one was eternally saved, nor eternally redeemed, all who died prior to the New Covenant's establishment are a separate group. And that is what you are doing, while at the same time trying to equate the two Ages.
Above we see Gentiles who have never heard the Law obeying the will of God, which denies your view that "the Jews had an advantage."
If anything, the Jews were at a disadvantage for the specific reason that one is more responsible if one has been given more, and that was the case with Israel.
Now, I ask you, here we see Jews and Gentiles placed on an equal plane in regards to responsibility to God (the Gentile having the Law written on their hearts), so tell me, were these Gentiles born again believers trusting in Christ?
The answer is no, they could not possibly have any clue about Christ if they did not have the Law (and I refer not just to the Covenant but the Word of God as well).
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. Ro 3
4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Ro 9
Again, because of what they had they were more responsible to obey. It is an advantage having specific revelation as they had, particularly when it brought them into relationship with God, as opposed to the Gentiles.
Now tell me whether Paul is speaking in a past tense here? Tell me if it is Israel Nationally or Spiritually in view?
He is speaking present tense about his countrymen, and specifically those descended from Isaac.
Where do you see them having vanished forever as you suggest? Why would Paul want to see those who didn't exist anymore saved?
Israel forfeited her advantages she once had over the nations.
I would agree with that, on a National Basis, however, that doesn't mean God will nullify His promises to her.
And when Paul makes it clear God has not, as you have, cast away His People...
Romans 11
King James Version (KJV)
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
The question posed is simple, and the answer is simple.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
This has the meaning of "falling" as it is used in regards to a house built on sand rather than rock.
What he makes clear is that it is not a matter of Gentiles only who are saved at this time, but Gentile Inclusion. Both Jew and Greek (Gentile) are saved in this Age. Paul knew that, but, here he is speaking about Israel on a National Basis, which is how Israel has always been distinguished (with Gentiles).
We wouldn't think the Jews in view were saved Jews would we?
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Two things I would mention here: first, we see Gentiles being grafted into the Tree that represents the people of God. Israel, as a nation, were the branches. Secondly, keep in mind it is the same Tree.
That Tree is the provision of God and the branches are the People of God. If we make this refer to individual salvation we err on a number of levels. We know that in view is not the Covenant of Law, for the Covenant of Law is not the Tree. When Israel was given what might be the equivalent of the strong delusion of 2 Thessalonians 2...
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.
...which took place when Christ came and particularly in relation to the New Covenant, they were not under the New Covenant. Gentiles are not grafted into the Covenant of Law, so we have to look at a different conclusion as to what the Tree is.
The best answer is always going to be that spiritual household of the faithful.
Now despite the fact there were men who were declared just and faithful, truly the people of God, they were still not in relationship with God through the New Covenant. What that means is that outside of New Covenant relationship, no-one had been eternally indwelt, eternally redeemed, and in relationship with God through the provision of the New Covenant. Not one person trusted in Christ's death, and not one person was a Christian.
And here we see Paul stating that they, as a Nation, not individuals, will be grafted in again through belief.
They were the legitimate 'sons of the kingdom' and then found themselves cast out into the outer darkness
But you realize that it is unbelievers that are cast out, right?
Not Israel as a nation.
And you realize this is a text that refers to the Kingdom Christ will establish, right?
Haven't seen Abraham eating and drinking around any tables here on earth yet, have you?
while the nations took their place reclining with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
You care to explain exactly how the "nations have taken their place and are reclining with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?"
This will not take place until the Millennial Kingdom.
Matthew 8:11-12
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I could spend several pages on this one point alone, lol. The children here are the Children of Israel. Now do we make this mean all will end up in Hell? That is the place of outer darkness. That is where the weeping and gnashing of teeth will take place.
And we see that fulfilled in a temporal sense when the Lord returns, it is the Sheep and Goat Judgment of Matthew 25, where, after being told that all are gathered, those who are goats, unbelievers, are cast into everlasting punishment, which begins through physical death, where they then reside in Hades, and are then resurrected after the thousand year Kingdom.
So where are the nations reclining at the table with Abraham?
Continued...