Featured Did God Choose Some To Damnation Scriptural

Hi Brother Reformed,

I would agree that all who are born again will know the gospel message, but God does not always accomplish bringing an individual to knowledge and faith in the gospel by the means of hearing of a gospel preacher, but can and also does this sovereignly via the Holy Spirit and direct revelation, "
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them..." (Jeremiah 31:33-34) and as Jesus said "45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45)

Also, Revelation 5:9 tells us, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;", however we know not every nation, kindred, tribe, or tongue throughout history was blessed with a gospel preacher to reach them before the tribe or people died out, thus I conclude God must reach some people via direct revelation of the gospel message.

Finally, there are infants who die in infancy (e.g. aborted) and mentally handicapped people that are not able to hear and understand a gospel preacher, but certainly we wouldn't conclude this is direct evidence of all such people as being reprobates.

 

Brother,

It would not be evil for God to will the existence of sin if he did do for a Holy purpose. A prime example of this is the crucifixion, the Father sent and bruised the Son (as scripture says, "it pleased the Lord to bruise Him), but it was not evil because he did it to redeem and save His people. He had a Holy intent in his actions, however pilot and the Jews did not have a Holy intent for their action in crucifying Christ, thus the same act by them was sin. Joseph's betrayal is another prime example, Joseph tells his brothers "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Genesis 50:20) In like manner, God willed that sin exist to bring about the greatest act of love, redemption and mercy history has or ever will see, so who can charge Him with sin in so doing? No fall-no Christ. If a physician amputates a leg to save a man, it is not evil, but if he does it merely to inflict pain, then it certainly is evil. So we see intent is what defines an action as sinful. Scripture is clear that God's will is the first cause of all causes in that it says, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11), thus both scripture and logic both teach us God is the first cause of all causes. If He isn't who is?

 

Brother KY,


You are speculating that because it never came into God's mind that these things would happen, that God did not know about it, and it had to be an act of volition or free will on the part of the sinner. However, a careful examination of the text does not say that God didn't know anything about it, but rather when it says "...which I commanded them not," it was that which God said had never come into His mind. He had never intended to command them to pass their sons and their daughters through the fire. A point worth noticing is that if something did not come into God's mind until after it came to pass, then we have the dilemma of worshiping a God who is growing in knowledge daily as events transpire. If something occurs today, and God only knows about it after it comes to pass, then God knows more today than He knew yesterday. And so God will know more tomorrow than He knows today, hence He is ever increasing in wisdom and intelligence. Thus, as I see it, I believe my interpretation I have offered of what never came into God's mind was to "command them not" is a correct understanding, otherwise God is not the same yesterday, today and forever and changes not, if His mentality or wisdom is forever changing, based upon the actions and the conduct of sinful man. And so you believe, if you hold to the silly notion that this sinful act never came into God's mind until said act was actually committed.

It is simply inconceivable to think that someone could use a text such as Jeremiah 32:35 and then remain stone silent on the verses that follow. As we read in verse 37, "Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: And they shall be my people, and I will be their God." How beautiful to read there of the wills and the shalls of God, and to know that out of all this seeming and apparent chaos, that God had a plan worthy of Himself, and to the benefit of His people in it. Had there been no sin, had there been no sending the sons and daughters through the fire, there would have been no dispersing, there would never have been the delivering of the children of Israel into the hands of the enemies in the foreign countries about them. But since those things did transpire, and God did disperse them, He said in the same context where He said He had commanded them not, that He would deliver them, and they would be His people and He would be their God. Can we believe then, that God just determined on the whim of the moment that He would be their God, and they would be His people, or was this a portion of the everlasting covenant, revealed to them at this time?

 

The doctrine that God has multiple wills is totally unknown in the Bible, but nevertheless accepted as fact among some. Some believe God has a determinate (or decreetive) will, and a permissive (allowable or suffering) will. That God has a determinate I thoroughly agree, and believe that all things that come to pass are included in His determinate will. But to teach that God has a permissive will is to teach something the Bible is absolutely silent about,. God does determine such things as come to pass, but to say He permits other things, or is a permissive God, is to say that they come to pass under some power, or influence, or will other than His own. It is to make God to be a religious schizophrenic, or one with split personality, or one who cannot rule but to a limited extent, turning over authority to others to rule in His stead. A permissive will is really no will at all, but an abdication of all authority, knowledge, and power to the creature, thus making the creator subservient to the work of His own hands; God being little more than a spectator.

And when we look at the events that occur about us in time today, with all of the evil and wickedness it would seem that if God only controls good things and but barely sees the rest then He only rules a tiny amount of the affairs of His creation; the vast majority of events being outside His will, poer h aps then I wonder if one should pray "Thy will be done" and then add, "God, I don't mean your decretive will, but your permissive will?" Such a person should be praying to the creatures who have power over these events, if he believes what he says.

As I see it, God has either declared all things to come to pass, or He has declared nothing. To say that He has predestinated some things but not other things is to say that God rules and reigns absolutely and supremely in some areas and does not reign in others. I must ask, who does rule and reign and what forces bring to pass such things that God does not will?

To say that God did not will for Adam to fall from his position in the garden is to say that Adam acted outside of God's purposes and plan and either caught God unaware or unprepared. To say that God had no will either way would be equally absurd, and seem to make Him no God at all. If, however, we accept the wording of the text, the Lord knew for a certainty that Adam would transgress, for He did not say, "If thou eatest thereof", but "In the day thou eatest thereof"'.God knows because God wills, and not the opposite. If God knows all things, then all things will be as God knows them, irrespective of what people believe about predestination, or the counsel of His will. I would further submit that since it is a truth that Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world that God had already provided a redemption for lost sinners before the sinners were lost. There was no possibility of the Lamb being slain in vain. God did it (prepared a sacrifice) because He had a people chosen before the foundation of the world. This brought about the absolute necessity of the fall in the garden, and God does not have to give a reason to me, you, or anyone else for Him ordering things as they are.

Brother Joe

 

My Bibles does not say "reserved to the day of destruction" in any of those verses. I use the KJV. and the NASB.
MB

 

Hi Brother MB,

I too use the KJV. This is the KJV for Job 21:30, "That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.", thus it does use the phrase you seem to object to. of the wicked being "reserved to the day of destruction." The NASB reads as follows, "For the wicked is reserved for the day of calamity; They will be led forth at the day of fury", while the same phrase is not used, the word "reserved" was again used by the translators.in reference to judgment day.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Hi Brother T,

I would disagree that God does not force his obedience, though I would prefer to say he changes the regenerates will to make them willingly obedient, rather than describing the action as to "force His obedience" in his children. Scripture tells us "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13). Thus it is God who does both the "will" and "doing" according to "His good pleasure" in the elect working out their "own salvation". It of necessity must be this way because we only have two natures, and of course one of them, the first one, is the flesh and carnal mind inherited from Adam which is unable to cooperate unto obedience as we read, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:7). This is why Paul concludes, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:25). Obviously here due to verse 8:7 the mind Paul is talking about here is not the "carnal mind" that he says later cannot obey the law of God, but rather the inner man, the "mind of Christ" that each believer receives upon regeneration, "16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:16). Our flesh nature on the other hand that we receive from Adam, is not and does not change after regeneration, this is why Paul declared after his conversion, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not" (Romans 7:18). The last verse completely destroy the belief held by conditional Primitive Baptists that they have power in themselves after regeneration to obey the law of God whereby they "earn blessings' in this time world . This is a peculiar doctrine they refer to as "conditional time salvation". It is a heresy, and a new doctrine that became very popular around early 1900's and first began in the late 1800's after the civil war. It is exclusive to conditionalist Primitive Baptists. and spread like a cancer as does any doctrine that glorifies man's flesh. There are no historical writings of this doctrine prior to the civil was, unlike the absolute predestination of all things that can be traced throughout history in the historical writings of Bible believing Baptists.

 

Brother Salzer,

The answer is simple, if indeed they were reprobate their time had not yet come. "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" (Eccl 3:1). This is similar to what the demons asked Jesus when they said, "art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matthew 8:29). I am sure you do not doubt their ultimate outcome if they were reprobate was the Lake of Fire and the appointed time would be at death.


Please do not misunderstand the doctrine of the absolute predestination of all things. It does not maintain God actively creates sinful thoughts in the hearts of men causing them to do evil actions. The sin is already in their heart as inherited by our father Adam. Their wicked flesh is the secondary cause of their evil action, however God's will is the first cause of all causes, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11).


Also, God predestinating a wicked event, does not mean the sinner can blame God for their action. A case in point is Pilate and the Jews who crucified Jesus. From scripture we know this was predestinated (determined beforehand), "both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Yet we see scripture still tells us it was done by their wicked hands, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" ( Acts 2:23)


If you are interested in reading a debate between two Primitive Baptists on the absolute predestination of all things (including sin) I recommend this one https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=3F2BD1A1ED70F51!488&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AHNLNqpXVrpHcNY . It is a good read and kept my interest. Also, if you are interested, I also have another debate on the same topic by two other elders in PDF format, however the file is too large to upload to this post, however If you private message me with an email address I can send it to you. The men in both debates are much more learned than I.

 

What is needed here is a PB to debate a PB... Since he is on one side and I am on the other... So Brother Joseph since I have been in the PB Church over 50 years and this other brother probably never ever set foot in one... I will study the debate you posted on the Hardy/Thompson Debate and get back to you... There are a few PB's on here kyredneck who is one and a preacher, though I'm not one, I do know PB Doctrine... Let me read it over and decide if I want to pursue a discussion with you on this matter... I did counsel a brother one time from Florida who embraced Absolute Predestination of All Things who joined our church after our discussion he was delivered from that... So give me some time and I will let you know my decision... Brother Glen

 

Brother,

Regarding David committing adultery and murder, scripture is the best commentary for scripture and we see in the book of Matthew the reason that all of this HAD to come to pass exactly as it did. In the lineage of Christ we see Bath-sheba mentioned (as she who had been the wife of Uriah) in chapter 1 verse 6 for bringing forth Solomon. IF things had not played out the way they did, or this incident had not have happened EXACTLY as it happened there would have been a break in the lineage of Christ. Was David in sin? Absolutely! and he confessed that sin before God. Was God in control of every thought and every action? Absolutely! and not only in control of it but He is the one who orchestrated every single moment of the incident to occur exactly as it happened. Why did David tarry in Jerusalem when Joab and the rest of his men went off to war? Why did it “come to pass” that David went up on the roof at the precise moment that Bath-Sheba was bathing below? Why did it come to pass that Bath-Sheba was fertile at that precise time and conceived (only for her baby to die later)? Why did it come to pass that when David tried to get Uriah to come and lay with Bath-Sheba (to cover up David’s sin) that he refused to go home but instead slept at David’s door? Why didn’t Uriah go home and lay with his wife or even just sleep in his own bed even after David got him drunk with wine? Now think about it for a moment and put yourself in his shoes: Here was a man who had been away at war for who knows how long. He has been away from his normal bed and especially away from his wife for some time now. You would think that at the very least he would want to get a good night sleep in his own bed which would also put him next to his wife which would give him opportunity to be intimate with her. David is obviously a little frustrated by now and therefore he asks Uriah why he won’t go to his own house. Uriah explains to David that while others of Israel and Judah are in tents and in the open fields he would not go down to his house. That to me shows an extreme amount of loyalty to his brethren and to his country but unfortunately that is far too rare for our human nature to be the norm. Which tells me that those thoughts could only have come from a sovereign God who was working all things after the counsel of His will. Another thing to contemplate if you are given to is that when Uriah was sent back to war and ended up on the front-line, could he have been killed if it wasn’t his time (See Eccl. 3:2)? All of this can be nothing short of God’s sovereignty over all things and points to Him directing each and every step and bringing everything to fruition or to pass.

 

Brother,

You are using logic that if God punishes or disciplines someone for doing something whatever was done that the individual is punished for was therefore against against His will. This is unscriptural. For example, God sent the King of Assyria against the Jews to punish the. We read in Isaiah, "6 I will send him (the Assyrian King) against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few" (Isaiah 10:6-7)

After this, a few verses later, God turns around and punishes the King of Assyria for he took credit for conquering the Jews when in fact it was God. God continues to declare in Isaiah, "12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:...15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood." (Isaiah 10:12-13, and 15)

Brother, I have enjoyed our discussion, but I fee like at this point we are beating a dead horse. The thread seems to consist of a pattern of you only asking me questions, me then answering the questions and posing you questions, you not answering any of them, then replying byasking me more questions that I in turn answer, etc. May the Lord bless you in your studies and search for a God honoring church that proclaims the whole counsel of God.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Hi Brother Glen,

I would be happy to have a discussion with you regarding this! I have a transcript of another debate between two Primitive Elders from 1943 between Elder Rhoades and West on the same issue of the absolute predestination of all things. It too is a worthwhile read whatever side of the fence you are on regarding the issue. If you want it, please private message me with an email address I can send it to for you. (Unfortunately it is too large to upload to this post).

I initially joined a Primitive church that was of the conditionalist variety back in 2003. At the time I was unfamiliar with the various factions that had divided the church in the late 1800's and early 1900's. After studying both sides, I later left and joined an absoluter Primitive church. I believe the absoluter side has the scriptural backing to their position, my studies also revealed to me that there are no writings on the doctrine of "conditional time salvation" as advocated by the conditionalist Primitives prior to the Civil War, leading me to the conclusion it is a "new doctrine" for those with "itchy" ears and not that of the original old Baptists. On the other hand, I found many historical writings and citations by Elders and also in the London Baptist Confession of Faith tha document that the doctrine of the absolute predestination of all things was the original Primitive Baptist and also Calvinistic doctrine (though I do not consider myself a Calvinist. Most would probably label me "hyper" lol). It is just sad that unfortunately many of the "predestinarian" Primitive Baptist churches are now far out numbered and few and far between. I have to drive three hours one way to attend the one closest to my house. No offense, but I believe the reason the conditionalist Primitive churches are so popular is due to the fact that their message elevates the flesh by giving them control in this time world of their own destiny and preaches that one can "merit" God's blessings by cooperating with the Holy Ghost.

Please private message me if you wish to discuss this further after you have read the debate. I am not always on Baptistboard each week, but should get your message via my email

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Maybe you should stop using just one verse and claiming what it really says. This conversation with. Zophar that Job had, took place before Christ. Christ died for the sins of the wicked. That includeds us all. Sin is wickedness and we all sin therefore we are all wicked. Thank God He sent His Son to take the sins of the world on Him Self. A reprobate is one who is rejected because of his continual sin.. Yet even a reprobate can be saved
MB