Featured Did God Choose Some To Damnation Scriptural

Dear Brother Salzer,

I never said, nor do I maintain that God "caused David to sin". There are secondary causes. David, like you and I inherited a sinful flesh from Adam, this was the secondary cause resulting in him lusting and ultimately committing both adultery and murder. God's will on the other hand is the first cause that causes us to obey as Paul says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13). It would be incorrect to apply the same principle to our disobedience by saying when we disobey and say, "It is God which worketh in me both to will and to do disobedience", rather scripture teaches us it is our sinful flesh that is the secondary cause whenever we sin, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:25) Predestinate in the New Testament in the Greek is the word 4309 proorízō and simply means to predetermine according to Strongs. Please see this link http://biblehub.com/greek/4309.htm However, God predestinated all events and causes everything (including our sin) to ultimately work together for our good as Romans 8:28 assures us, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose"

God predetermine everything that ever has or will occur. His predestination of the elect is in a different manner than his predestination of the reprobate. God has to actually intervene with the elect, He had to become a man, take on their sin on the cross, take out their stony heart, give them a new heart of flesh, and make them born again to save them in order to predestinate them to heaven. Predestination of the reprobate is different. God didn't have to be the first cause to predestinate them to eternal damnation, Adam's sin did that as it was the secondary cause that dammed them. God then choose to leave them in their sin, thus predetermining or if you want to use the word "predestinating" them to eternal damnation, however even this was done for a purpose to make His power know, justice, and holiness in judgment. Do you see how the predestination or "predetermination" (to use a synonym) among the two groups is accomplished in a different manner? One can predetermine something as the first cause to accomplish something, but have a secondary cause that is directly responsible for the even taking place. For example, if I am handicap with no wheelchair I can will that I cross the street, but I cannot cross unless someone carries me to the other side. In this case the first cause of me crossing was my will to do so resulting in asking someone, but the secondary cause that took me there was the person carrying me. Does that make sense to you brother?

 

Well said brother Reformed, I agree and perhaps should have explained this earlier in the thread with this brother. Please see my post before this one in which I attempted to say just about the same thing you have laid out here.

 

Brother Salzer,

My favorite passage in the whole Bible and one that should give every child of God comfort is Romans 8:28. I am sure you are familiar with it. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." As I said in my last post, God does not cause us to sin, the secondary cause of our flesh does this, but when we do, he predetermines (or predestinates) the event so even that works out for our good. This is seen in the sin of the betrayal of Joseph by his brothers into slavery. We read, "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Genesis 50:20).

Now on to further proving the doctrine of the predestination of all things. Sin itself per the Bible is a thing. What does the Bible say about things? "17 And he is before all things, and by him (Christ) all things consist." (Colossians 1:17) and "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). Now God did not and cannot sin as He is Holy and has a righteous intent for all He does, rather He used secondary cause not the first cause of His will to make sin. Satan was the secondary cause. God created him evil and he was, thus the first sinner. We know this because we read, " Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning..." (John 8:44) and "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning" ( 1 John 3:8). Ezekiel 28 further describes the devil and proves he was created evil, it says, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created...” The word “perfect” does not mean holy or righteous but it means “complete, without blemish and perfect”. And the verse also makes clear that whom Ezekiel is talking about was a created being and was created perfect or complete. The next thing to notice is in the second part of the verse which says, “...till iniquity was found in thee.” Here we see that “iniquity” which means “evil or wickedness” was found in him. So, think about it in this light: If something is found somewhere does that not mean then that it was there before but just wasn’t made manifest? For example, picture that my wife and I are out walking on a path and as I look down I notice and “find” a silver dollar in the dirt on the ground. Did that silver dollar “originate” at that moment in the dirt because it was found by me? Or was it there before I found it? Obviously it was there before I found it but it was just made manifest to me at that moment. So, when this verse says that “iniquity” was found in him, then it means that this “evil or wickedness” was already there but was made manifest in him at the appointed time. Was it sinful of God to create Satan evil?? Absolutely notbecause His intent in doing so was Holy to bring about His people to redeem to show His mercy and love.

Now many may argue sin is not a thing, but sin” in scripture I couldn’t help but notice that it is used numerous times as a noun (Matt. 1:21; 3:6; 9:2; Mark 2:7; Luke 1:77; John 1:29; Acts 2:38; Rom. 3:9; 1 Cor. 6:18; Gal. 1:4; etc.). My understanding is that a noun is a person, place, thing or idea. Paul says in Romans that “Blessed is the man whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (4:8). If sin is not a “thing” then please explain how it can be imputed unto someone? The word “impute” means to take an inventory and the word “sin” here is used as a noun. In the same letter he also says; “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Rom. 5:12)” The word “sin” is in this verse twice and both times it is a noun with the definite article before it. So, therefore it is actually saying, “Wherefore, as by one man THE sin entered into the world, and death by THE sin;...” On the other hand, the word “sinned” in the above verse is a verb and in the active voice. And it isn’t alone because there are numerous other verses as well that it is used as a verb (see Luke 15:18; John 5:14; 8:11 and Romans 3:23 just for a small example). Consequently, since “sin” is also used as a verb it shows action. If sin is not a thing then how could any action be associated with it? We see therefore that sin “entered” into the world by one man. That one man we know as Adam and it occurred when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If sin is not a “thing” then how could it “enter” into anywhere? If sin is not a “thing” then how could it be active? Paul also says this about Christ in his second letter to the Corinthian brethren. “For he hath made him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (5:21)” Here Christ was made sin for His people. He who knew no sin became sin. Now again, if sin is not a thing then please explain how could Christ be made it? Peter also concurs when he writes in his first letter, “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (2:24) Again, (I know that I am being extremely redundant here but...) I ask how could Christ bare the sins of His people in his own body if sin is not a thing and how could “we” be dead to sins?

Sorry for the length of my post, but this doctrine is dear to me. God bless and enjoy your weekend.

Brother Joe

 

MB,

Why should it matter that the conversation took place before Christ as Malachi declares, "6 For I am the Lord, I change not" (Malachi 3:6) and Hebrews states,"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever", thus what was doctrinally true of reprobates in Job God does not change and make it false after Christ arrives.

As far as your contention, "Yet even a reprobate can be saved" that goes against the very definiton of a reprobate, according to Websters's dictionary the word means, "to foreordain to damnation". More importantl, why then did Jesus tell the Pharisees they were incapable of hearing him, "
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:43-44). Notice this verse says two things, firstly it is impossible for them to hear Christ's words and secondly their father is none other than "the devil'. Christ did not die for the children of the devil, nor the goats, but rather the sheep, this is why he prays, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me for they are thine" (John 17:9). Christ isn't calling everyone to Him, not the self righteous, but the burdened sinner who is looking for Him because the Holy Spirit has given him a new heart, "When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Mark 2:17). You can keep your universal atonement it is foreign to the Bible. God does not love everybody, he hates the reprobate and will give them justice on judgement day, "5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." (Psalm 11:5-6) The elect receive mercy and the reprobate justice in damnation as God is Holy, in neither case has God done anything wrong. "20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?" (Romans 9:20-21). You can keep your universal atonement. It is a doctrine invented by man and is foreign to the Bible. My destiny is in God's hand who is an all powerful sovereign God and from this I draw both strength and comfort! I leave you with this, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35) Praise ALMIGHTY God!

Brother Joe

 

Brother, may I ask you 2 questions? If David had not taken Bathsheba, would Solomon had been born? If Solomon had not been born, would the temple had been restored?

 

Brother Sovereign,

Good to see you back on the boards! I am glad you decided to come back!

 

Brother Salzer,

Nobody on the board ever said God caused David to commit adultery or murder, thus I don't know how you came to that conclusion. If you believe I made such a heretical statement I challenge you to please reread all my posts on this thread and provide the quote. You wont find one. It is important to note nearly all absoluters (a term used to describe those who believe in the predestination of all things) I have met do not believe God is the author of sin, rather they vehemently deny it. Even the 1689 London Baptist Confession of faith states regarding God's decrees, "God has decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things which shall ever come to pass. - Yet in such a way that God is neither the author of sin nor does He have fellowship with any in the committing of sins, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature , nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. " (Notice also the confession mentions secondary causes, this is what directly caused David to sin-the secondary cause of the will of his sinful flesh). Unfortunately, enemies of the doctrine of the absolute predestination of all things (mainly arminians and conditionalist Primitive Baptists) try to charge us with teaching that God is the author of sin to erect a strawman's argument to tear down the doctrine. Search the internet, you will not find a quote from a mainstream absoluter who believes this.

David's sinful flesh caused him to sin. God did predestinate it, but as I mentioned that only means He "predetermined" it occur per the Greek definition of the word. God used secondary causes for David to sin- that being the will of David's sinful flesh. God can predetermine something without being the direct cause of the predetermined event happening. Take for example a handicap man who has predetermined he will cross the street without his wheelchair or walker. He finds someone who is willing to carry him to the other side of the street. What was the direct cause of him crossing the street? It was the willing man who carried him! Nobody would say the direct cause was the handicap man's will to cross. Likewise, David's willingly sinful flesh is the direct (or secondary cause is the more proper term if you will) of him sinning, however God's will is the first cause of all causes and it was His will that David commit adultery. He accomplished this by David inheriting a sinful as a result of the fall of Adam and setting the exact circumstances in place for the event to occur such as having Bathsheba bathing nude at the exact time David was on the roof, her being fertile at the exact time they had intercourse, Uriah going to battle, rather than sleeping with his wife who conceived, then being killed in battle, however God predestinating this wasn't sinful because His intent in doing so was Holy because it was to bring about the birth of Solomon who was in Christ's lineage and Christ bought forth his plan of redemption and also so Solomon would be born to rebuild the temple as brother Sovereign indicated, his intent in it happening was not for David to have a good time with a married woman!

If you look at Christ's lineage (both separate ones in Mathew and Luke) and all the people in it, the necessity of the bloodline and how it was never broken throughout all of history, the events that took place to ensure none of the individuals in the lineage died off without first procreating, and the events surrounding each person described in the Old Testament who are in His lineage that alone is enough for me to believe in the predestination of all things.

 

It was a good thread you started! I enjoyed the discussion.