Featured The Trinity

Trevor -

I checked every page of this thread and do not find any place where I claimed that John 10:30 on its own proves the Trinity. Rather John 10:30 and John 1:1-3, 10-11, 14 combined with John 10:30 and John 14:1-6, John 8:58 etc. prove that Christ and the Father are one - in that both are God "was with God -- AND was God" And that Christ is also called the Creator... so Also in Heb 8:6-10 it is Christ at Sinai thundering the Ten Commandments - as YHWH.

But to prove the Trinity -- we need to add texts that apply to the Holy Spirit as well. John 10:30 on its own does not prove the Trinity.

 

Greetings again DHK,

Yes we do see things differently, but I do not in any way feel thwarted by what you have stated in your Post, as these aspects seem to me to be simple and clear. When I try to imagine looking at these things from a Trinitarian and immortal soul (or similar) perspective I become very confused. Perhaps you feel that you see these things clearly from a Trinitarian and immortal soul (or similar) perspective.

I believe that when Jesus died, he was literally dead, that is his body and mind ceased to function and Jesus laid for three days in the tomb. Then he was resurrected, that is his mind and body were repaired and started to function again. But at one stage of this process he was changed from a mortal flesh and blood, breathing body, capable of corruption to a spirit body, now incorruptible and immortal.

There is nothing plainer than the Scriptural statement that Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God the Father.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Acts 2:29-36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
To say that Jesus is at the right hand of God does not make Jesus “God” in the English sense of the word. We do not look and see God on the right hand side and God on the left hand side. The Scriptures do not speak of God the Father and God the Son seated together. Rather Jesus has been exalted to this position, not a position he simply resumes. Jesus is described as “both Lord and Christ”, he is a “man”, he is “the Son of Man”, he is “the Son of God”. There is only one God, the Father.

From a Trinitarian point of view, was the child Jesus, who had to learn wisdom, still fully Deity, say at 5 years old – all wise and all knowing? In other words did he at 5 years old possess full Deity? Was it suppressed or in full operation? From my perspective he was a child, born of the Holy Spirit with God as His Father, and thus the Son of God. He needed to learn wisdom, and he was instructed by Joseph and Mary and God his Father and by the experiences and trials of life. Therefore he was a vessel that needed to be filled with all the fullness of God and thus becomes a pattern for us:
Colossians 2:9-10 (KJV): 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete (or filled) in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Ephesians 3:19 (KJV): And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

It is true that the trinity must be accepted by faith.
It is also true that as difficult as it is to understand the Bible necessitates a belief in the trinity to be saved.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--There is enough natural revelation all around mankind that God declares man without excuse not to believe in his eternal power and Godhead meaning trinity.
--If we look around us we see in his creation a three-in-one in many places.
The tree is composed of its leaves & branches, its trunk, and its root. Those three basic parts.
The skin has three basic parts to it.
Fruits have skin, flesh and seeds.
It was Patrick that always used the the three-leafed clover as three in one.
The egg has three parts two it--all distinct but all three making one or the whole.

One can go on and on how God in nature has created so much of his creation as "three-in-one" all parts being necessary to the whole. Jesus used the illustration in John 15 with the vine: the vine (or trunk), the branches, and the fruit. All are necessary to bring forth both fruit and life.

Paul said:
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--Again a trinity. Man is a triune being for he is made in the image of God.
Jesus was a perfect man. As a man he died. He was buried. He was dead. If he wasn't dead he couldn't rise from the dead.
However we all have a spirit. As with Christ so with us. That spirit will never die. With Jesus it is the Holy Spirit. He is God. God cannot die. The mind of the body died as will ours. God did not leave his body in "hell" or the grave. "Up from the grave he arose." His Spirit never died. Neither will yours or mine.
In this sense only a spirit is dead. Dead in the Bible means separation. If one is not saved they are separated from God--spiritually separated. If they continue in rebellion to God someday they will stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment, their final sentencing, and be cast into the Lake of Fire. They will be separated from God for all eternity. That is why it is called the Second Death. It is the final separation from God and it is for eternity. But one will live on in that state forever, and remember, feel, have intellect, etc.

This is the testimony of Stephen:
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
--For Stephen Jesus left his exalted position and stood to welcome the first Christian martyr home.

Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
--Christ, in his body is the image of God the Father. He upholds all things together because he created all things and sustains all things. He is sovereign over all things. And now having purged the sins of those who believe on him, he sits on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Heb_1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
--What is true of Christ is not true of any angel or any other being.

Heb_8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
--This is his present ministry--being a high priest for the believers as he sits on the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb_10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
--This is when he took that position--after he made his sacrifice on the cross. Then he arose from the dead and sat down at the right hand of God.

Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
--Again, where is Christ? At the right hand of the throne of God.
This is just the Book of Hebrews. There are scores of verses, over a hundred, that say the same thing.

Christ was, is and always will be God. Even as an infant he was still deity. He never gave up his deity not even in the womb. There were times when he deliberately chose not to exercise some of his attributes. For example he told all: "I lay my life down, I take it up again. No man takes it from me." IOW, Christ chose to go to the cross on his own terms, willingly.
When Judas betrayed him and the soldiers came, Peter took his sword and cut off the ear of the servant of the high priest. Jesus rebuked Peter, restoring the ear of the servant. Then, rebuking Peter, he said: "Do you not know that I could call 12 legions of angels from my heavenly Father.?"
He didn't. He could have. He had the power. He laid his omnipotence aside. He went to the cross willingly. He had all power and might to destroy those wicked Romans and Jews, but he didn't.

In the same way he chose not to exercise certain of his attributes while being in the womb. It doesn't mean he wasn't God. God cannot cease being God. God never dies.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
--Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus.
How can Jesus be on earth and in heaven at the same time? He is God, omnipresent.

 

Greetings again DHK,

I do not accept that the many “threes” in creation prove that God is a Trinity. I believe that there is only One God, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

I accept very much that the things of creation witness to God’s Eternal Power and Divinity. I am not sure if when you see the word “Godhead” as in the KJV, you immediately think or claim that this is the Trinity. If the word “Trinity” appeared here then I could accept your claim, but the KJV simply says “Godhead”. Other translations simply use “Divinity” or “Divine Nature”.
Romans 1:20 (KJV): 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:20 (ASV): 20For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Romans 1:20 (NASB95): For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Yes I agree and find it interesting how often Psalm 110:1 is quoted and expounded, but they all speak of Jesus as being at the right hand of God. Another part of Psalm 110 that is quoted and extensively expounded is verse 5 and a Priest is a mediator between God and man. God cannot be the mediator.
Psalm 110:4 (KJV): The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

But Jesus did die. I find it very difficult to accept that Jesus in the womb was fully God, God the Son. To imagine that God the Son would be in his fullness of being Deity, in consciousness and power and yet confined to the womb for 9 months seems to me impossible. I cannot accept that Jesus had two minds, for example when he was 5, to have the full mind of God and the developing mind of a child. We have the record of Jesus when he was 12, but the following indicates the process of his development.
Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
There is no hint in the above that the fullness of the Deity, God the Son, was somehow imbedded into Jesus here when he was a child.

I have already suggested that Mary and Joseph and God the Father instructed Jesus. I do not know if you are conscious of some of the prophecies concerning the instruction of Jesus as a child, and I also question whether these are at all emphasised within your Church environment, because the concept of the Trinity does not really need this instruction of Jesus if he had only the one mind.
Isaiah 11:1-5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isaiah 50:4-5 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.

Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the man of Psalm 1, who delighted in the Word of God and meditated therein.
Psalm 1:1-3 (KJV): 1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
This also shows that the mind of Jesus was a development, not because the fully developed God the Son was embodied in Jesus from the womb.

Kind regards
Trevor[/quote]

 

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Trevor, the bible is full of revelations from God which to human minds seems to be impossible. Tis why He is God.

 

Yes Jesus died, but God did not, and Jesus is God.
There are many things that are incomprehensible to the human mind and must be taken by faith. This is one of them. How can a finite mind understand an infinite God? Yet this is what you are trying to do, and it is the very reason the J.W.'s will not believe both in the trinity and in the deity of Christ. You have given the same reason. "What I cannot understand I will reject."

I understand that when I flip the switch on the wall the light will come on, but I may not understand all about the science of electricity to know how the light is turned. I just know it works. I don't have to understand.
The same is true with flying.
Jesus used the example of a kernel of corn "dying" first, and then coming to life. They didn't know the "why" either, they just knew it would. A scientist today still cannot put together a "seed" with its various chemical components and plant it so that it will grow. It is God that gives life.

Deu_29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
--Some things are kept from us on purpose and we will never understand till we get to heaven.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
--We cannot understand God. He is infinite and we are not.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

 

Greetings again steaver and DHK,

God has given us a mind to comprehend certain things that he has revealed. I do not accept that he reveals things that completely contradict our reasoning ability. Simply Jesus did die, therefore Jesus is not God.

But the JWs believe in the incarnation of Jesus, not of God the Son, but Michael the Archangel. I cannot accept that Michael was restricted to 9 months in the womb, or if Michael was Jesus that he would have needed to learn wisdom as a child.

But these examples are not outside our normal reasoning ability. There are people who can explain most aspects of why the light works, and others can explain the principles of flying. The reason why these things are readily available today is that practical men apply this knowledge. Even though unknown 300 years ago, once this key of understanding has been unlocked then what was once considered obscure or doubtful is today considered elementary and commonplace.

Yes this is beyond the skill of the present scientists, but it is not contrary to our reasoning ability.

I agree that we are limited in knowledge until the return of Christ. But the greatest and most complete revelation of God is in His Son Hebrews 1:1-3. What is revealed is no longer a secret.

I agree that we are limited in knowledge, but Isaiah 55:9-10 is one place where I believe that we can start to understand the language of John 1:1-3,14.
Isaiah 55:10-11 (KJV): 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
When we ask for and eat our daily bread, this bread in effect comes from heaven, but not directly. God provides the rain and snow that waters the earth and provides seed to the sower and bread to the eater. This process we can understand even though we stand in awe at the overall provision by God. Similarly with the word of God that has gone forth out of God’s mouth, the end product is the Word made Flesh, who gives life to the eater. This also explains in what sense Jesus came down from heaven. Once a better or more complete understanding of God has been revealed, then there is no need to go to some unreasonable, incomprehensible or impossible, mystery concept.
Isaiah 55:1-3 (KJV): 1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. 2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. 3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

TrevorL

Hello TrevorL,

This is wrong altogether.....God gives His people the Holy Spirit that people can welcome Divine truth. No one can savingly trust the biblical Jesus{God manifest in the flesh} unless the Spirit allows them to...
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

God is going to save a multitude of people In Christ...

Every saved person will Confess that Jesus is God come in the flesh...
He as the Servant of the Lord " took upon himself" a body of flesh...in order to die as our substitute.
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

Everyone in heaven will know Jesus as God. Every believer on earth right now knows Jesus as God and freely confess it.

To be quite open and honest with you...it is not "up for grabs"...it is a non negotiable...
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This in the only Jesus who can save.....there is no other....seek Him while he can be found.....know this....failure to confess this is to confess that you are outside of the kingdom and in the realm of death.
The only good news Is found in the God/man...our Eternal High Priest.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

Well Trevor, dozens upon dozens of passages of Scripture has been presented to you that probably 99% of the Christian community clearly sees as declaring Jesus Christ's Deity and you have dismissed it all. So I just have one last question, do you think it matters? Do you believe there will be consequences for worshipping Jesus Christ as God? If so, what will they be?

 

Trevor?

 

Trevor has been banned Steaver. You won't see him around any longer.
He should have been banned long ago. The board has banned all non-trinitarians.

 

I agree with the board banning posters with such beliefs. Trevor did not believe Christ was God incarnate!
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." (2 John 1:9-11)