Featured Did Jesus experience a separation from God on the cross?

If death is separation from God and if Jesus Christ died for our sins then the Son was separated from the Father in death, until grace intervened. The grace of life.

You will be saved because he was resurrected from the dead.

 

The O.P. is the sort of argument that takes a horse chestnut and passes it off as a chestnut horse. On the cross Christ was the substitute for His people. He was abandoned by the Father on the cross that we might not be abandoned in hell.

I love this old Puritan prayer:

Christ was all anguish that I might be all joy,
cast off that I might be brought in,
trodden down as an enemy that I might be welcomed as a friend,
surrendered to hell's worst that I might attain heaven's best,
stripped that I might be clothed,
wounded that I might be healed,
athirst that I might drink,
tormented that I might be comforted,
made a shame that I might inherit glory,
entered darkness that I might have eternal light.
My saviour wept that all tears might be wiped from my eyes,
groaned that I might have eternal song,
endured all pain that I might have unfailing health,
bore a thorned crown that I might have a glory diadem,
bowed His head that I might uplift mine,
experienced reproach that I might receive welcome,
closed his eyes in death that I might gaze upon unclouded brightness,
expired that I might live forever.
O Father, who spared not Thine only Son that thou mightiest spare me,
all this transfer Thy love designed and accomplished;
Help me to adore Thee by lips and life........

From The Valley of Vision (ed. Arthur Bennett. Banner of Truth)

 

Excellent. I hope I may quote your assessment in the future?

 

Perhaps those who resort to personal attacks have nothing left to bring to support their view?

 

Agreed! The author of this thread should have expressed his erroneous views without resorting to slanderous, arrogant and condescending remarks of others.

 

I am not certain that I am reading the same thread!!!!

If anything the author of the OP has defended his view, and provided substantial evidence of support.

Others have failed to provide Scripture support and had to rely upon those that would only agree with their view.

The author of the OP has been far more gracious that I could ever have expressed in this and other threads.

For example:

Has anyone provided a single Scripture that proves God's rage was poured out upon Christ, and that the demand of God's satisfaction obliged the complete separation, abandonment, desertion, shunning of the Son?

That in such a view, the Trinity is not destroyed, and becomes a duet, no matter how brief such may be (for there was one who posts that separation lasted three days).

When the scene is pictured in the book of the Revelation, is there ANY hint of such separation and rage upon the one who is able to take the Scrolls?

 

I certainly have, three in fact.
Psalm 22:1, Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34. They seem perfectly clear to me. I can't imagine why anyone would want to contradict them.
The abandonment was obviously not permanent (Phil. 2:9 etc.), which of course gives us great hope that when the heavens are as brass to us and we have no feeling whatsoever of the presence of God, we should not despair because He sent His Son that way.

 

It has always struck me as being an extended contemplation on Isaiah 53:4-5.

 

That's because ultimately, in the final analysis, "I and the Father are one" Jn 10:30.

But that doesn't change the fact:

7 Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5

God HEARD His supplications and saved Him from death by raising Him from the dead.

The Jews killed Him but God raised Him from the dead.

 

Nothing? Nothing at all?
'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are you so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning? O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; and in the night season, and am not silent.'

 

Why do contend that there was any abandonment at all permanent or temporary?

These verses you give were addressed. Each state essentially the same words. Posting three of the same words does not support lend, for two are quoting the other.

No one has yet to show either logically how the Trinity can be separated into a duet, or how the hypostatic union that was unique in Christ was able to be disassembled and then reassembled. This is (imo) a major key that no "abandonment, separation, or disunion" occurred. God cannot separate from Himself.

Perhaps the one account above all others that should give some indication of that a broken relationship occurred between the Father and the Son would be the same that lays out more clearly than any other the Love of the Father and the purpose of the Son (John 3). However, John is totally silent. Yet, he is the ONLY gospel writer that is also an actual eye witness, standing with the Lord's mother at the foot of the Cross, and one of the three in whom the Lord spoke to directly while He waited for the exact time to lay down his life. If any account of such significance had occurred (that of the Father abandoning the Son) certainly John would have given some statement in that account.

However, it isn't in that account that John writes of what occurred, but at a much later time in his life. While writing the Revelation.

Revelation 5 reveals the scene from the perspective of heaven in which the Lamb comes forward to take the scroll. At that time shown from the perspective of heaven, there is not a hint of separation or that the lamb had been even shunned. Just the opposite occurs.

Further, there is also no evidence I can find in the OT tabernacle sacrifices, the prophecies, or any other account that would support the thinking that God "abandoned" in the way of deserted, separated, disavowed, disowned, or divorced the Son.

But there are those who will hold tightly to traditions of men rather than Scriptures.

And, therefore, it is not uncommon for a tradition to be built and passed on as factual, yet, when examined for Scripture support is just altogether lacking any evidence.

Without such traditions as wrath and abandon, the actual accomplishment of the Cross becomes far more definite and sharp in focus.

 

We are blessed in having the word translated 'forsaken' in both Hebrew and Greek for us to study.

The Hebrew word in Psalm 22:1 is Azab. According to Young's Analytical Concordance, it appears in the O.T. exactly 200 times. Of those, it is translated in the KJV 'Forsake' 123 times, 'leave' 67 times, 'leave destitute' once, and 'refuse' once (also 'leave off' 4 times). So the overwhelming usage of the word is to forsake or to leave.

The Greek word in Matt 27 and Mark 15 is enkataleipo. The same word is used in 2 Cor. 4:9; 2 Tim. 4:10 & 16; Heb. 10:25; 13:5. Why not check these out to see if they mean anything else except 'forsake'? The word is also translated 'leave' on two occasions: Acts 2:27 and Rom. 9:19.

N.B. The word Sabachthani is Aramaic, not Hebrew.

To refuse to believe the plain meaning of the words because they do not fit one's own theological constructs is not good theology (to put it mildly).

The people around the cross mistook His cry of 'Eloi' for 'Elia,' the Greek vocative form of Elijah- they thought that He was expecting that Elijah would come and rescue Him- in other words, they completely misunderstood- so to read anything theological into their actions would be unwise.

 

Is there anything in the OT that would show; Because of our sins being placed upon the Passover Lamb, the Son of God, that as we are being unleavened by him, the Son relative to the Father would be unclean? Untouchable of the Father for a given period. After a given period of time say, three days, then, washing of regeneration? Sprinkled with living water.

Not abandoned,, but separated in being unclean through death because of our sins?

BTW I like you believe the Psalms actually are about the Son therefore Ps 139 also, that is even being in Sheol/Hades he cannot escape the presence of the Spirit of God. However even in that Psalm the Son, is from the lowest parts of the earth perfected and so also is his church in Him.

This has been a good discussion.

 

I agree and besides:
λαμβάνω
The KJV translates Strongs G2983 in the following manner:receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x),catch (3x), not tr (1x), misc (17x).

I believe he, "received," resurrected life and glory from God, his Father. 1 Peter 1:21 Gal 1:1