The Casual gospel

[DHK]

"DHK

What are you even talking about? question what 4 yr olds? Question whose salvation?

Read Martin's reply to me:

DHK,
It isn't a question of theology, much less the DoGs. Did these 4 year-olds realise that they were sinners and repent of it, and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of it? Or were they just repeating something they'd been taught, in order to please Mommy and Daddy? That is the question.

I had previously referenced four year olds on this board who testify that they were saved at that age, and others at ages 5 to 7. Do you also charge them with easy believism and, as is being done here, question their salvation?

 

[JonShaff]

I am not a pastor.

Yea...what you just stated has no bearing on "growing" a church

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[Iconoclast]

Read Martin's reply to me:

I had previously referenced four year olds on this board who testify that they were saved at that age, and others at ages 5 to 7. Do you also charge them with easy believism and, as is being done here, question their salvation?

The way I read martin's post is he was asking about any four year old's profession....I did not see where he questioned anyones salvation in particular.
he seems to be asking is this a wise course of action...just believe that infants and little ones know what is going on at all?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yea...what you just stated has no bearing on "growing" a church

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How do you figure that Jon?

 

[JonC]

Well Jon C you know ....you can claim more decisions and grow your "church" if you do not question anything.

I always wondered....why is it so bad to have our salvation questioned anyway? Is it for fear of an insufficient answer?

 

[Iconoclast]

I always wondered....why is it so bad to have our salvation questioned anyway? Is it for fear of an insufficient answer?

You are correct.
it is quite healthy from time to time. yes...fear has torment!

 

[JonShaff]

How do you figure that Jon?

I just don't see the relevance.

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[Iconoclast]

I just don't see the relevance.

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You stated.....[QUOTE
Yea...what you just stated has no bearing on "growing" a church

][/QUOTE]
So I asked you...why do you say that? It bears directly on the issue being discussed.

 

[JonShaff]

You stated.....[QUOTE
Yea...what you just stated has no bearing on "growing" a church

]

So I asked you...why do you say that? It bears directly on the issue being discussed.[/QUOTE]
So questioning salvations (supposing in a church setting) has bearing on a. How many enter the kingdom on Heaven or B. How many members he has?

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[Iconoclast]

So I asked you...why do you say that? It bears directly on the issue being discussed.

So questioning salvations (supposing in a church setting) has bearing on a. How many enter the kingdom on Heaven or B. How many members he has?

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do you pastor a church?
is there any membership requirements?
if so what?

 

[DHK]

The way I read martin's post is he was asking about any four year old's profession....I did not see where he questioned anyones salvation in particular.
he seems to be asking is this a wise course of action...just believe that infants and little ones know what is going on at all?

Here is what I opened with to get this conversation back on track:
[quote]However, did he ever consider this: There are many on this board who have given a clear-cut testimony of salvation, that they were saved at the age of four, and some at the ages of 5 to 7.. How much theology do you think they grasped at that time? Did they understand all the Doctrines of Grace?
How much of this transforming gospel of the new birth do you think they understood? Or was it just easy-believism?[/quote]
To speak of specific people on this board and question their salvation on this board and in public is shameful and out of order, and simply for the reason of hiding behind a pet theology is unconscionable.

 

[JonShaff]

Yes
And yes...really just a transfer letter or profession of faith...which would include a testimony of being saved and reading and agreeing to our by laws.

Either way...not joining would still increase attendance. And adding to the roll is overrated...God's roll is what matters.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes
And yes...really just a transfer letter or profession of faith...which would include a testimony of being saved and reading and agreeing to our by laws.

Either way...not joining would still increase attendance. And adding to the roll is overrated...God's roll is what matters.

Okay... a profession of faith consisting of what?
Does your church have a statement of faith?
Do you use a confession of faith?

 

[JonC]

I don't think you guys got off track. It is not about age, but about understanding the gospel message (theology, but the gospel). I was saved when I was ten. I questioned for a time if it was genuine (I didn't understand sin as I do now, I didn't understand redemption as I do now) but I realized that I was saved with the faith of a child....but that faith included understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And I don't think people intentionally tell unsaved people they are saved to get numbers. Pastors genuinely want people to be saved regardless of theological differences. But sometimes I do think we get careless when offering assurances of salvation. My personal fear would be carelessly giving false assurance to someone and that person standing before Jesus as He says "I never knew you." There are people who think that they are saved but are not, I don't doubt that at all.

We can never truly know if someone is saved. But we can do our best to help people understand the gospel and discern to the best of our abilities if they confess true faith. It is not preventing anyone from entering the kingdom, in fact, it is the opposite. And it is being responsible.

 

[JonShaff]

Okay... a profession of faith consisting of what?
Does your church have a statement of faith?
Do you use a confession of faith?

When they were saved or how they know they are saved.

Yes we do.

I just don't understand why you think a pastor would let someone be deceived if they thought someone truly wasn't saved, all for numbers sake. That just strikes me as odd.

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[Iconoclast]

When they were saved or how they know they are saved.

Yes we do.

I just don't understand why you think a pastor would let someone be deceived if they thought someone truly wasn't saved, all for numbers sake. That just strikes me as odd.

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Okay...what is it?
is it a historic confession?
in other words...what process do you have in place if a person wants to be a member?
How old is your youngest church member?

I just don't understand why you think a pastor would let someone be deceived if they thought someone truly wasn't saved, all for numbers sake. That just strikes me as odd.

how many people have desired membership in your church that you held off letting them be members?

 

[DHK]

I don't think you guys got off track. It is not about age, but about understanding the gospel message (theology, but the gospel). I was saved when I was ten. I questioned for a time if it was genuine (I didn't understand sin as I do now, I didn't understand redemption as I do now) but I realized that I was saved with the faith of a child....but that faith included understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I agree. It is not about age.
And if it is not about age then it is about comprehension. The gospel is a simple message. If a child can understand the gospel so can so many others who are being written off as "easy-believers" simply because they prayed a prayer or something similar. How is faith expressed? From the heart, yes, but often through the vehicle of prayer. Salvation is by faith. It is a gift to be received. It doesn't take a theologian to understand it. That has been my point all along.
Your former point about the holiness of God is well taken. Sometimes the attributes of God, such as holiness, take a long time to learn as one progresses through their Christian life. The closer one draws to Christ the more they realize their own sinfulness in the light of God's holiness.

 

[JonShaff]

Okay...what is it?
is it a historic confession?
in other words...what process do you have in place if a person wants to be a member?
How old is your youngest church member?


how many people have desired membership in your church that you held off letting them be members?

Well I suppose this isn't a great discussion to be had with me...as I have been pastoring for only a year and we only have 8 "members" and about 30 or so attending. I've had people talk to Me about becoming a member but no follow through. Our church is about 100 years old and has been completely autonomous for about 20 years. I've read through their processes and "covenant" but it Was about a year ago when I did. So to be honest I can't really answer much of what you asked.

In my brain I've put together a questionnaire and form to fill out but I have not had the chance to implement it yet.



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[JonShaff]

Well Jon C you know ....you can claim more decisions and grow your "church" if you do not question anything.

But back to this....even if he questioned....that still may not change the fact that they are attending or whether or not they are in the Kingdom of God.

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[Iconoclast]

Well I suppose this isn't a great discussion to be had with me...as I have been pastoring for only a year and we only have 8 "members" and about 30 or so attending. I've had people talk to Me about becoming a member but no follow through. Our church is about 100 years old and has been completely autonomous for about 20 years. I've read through their processes and "covenant" but it Was about a year ago when I did. So to be honest I can't really answer much of what you asked.

In my brain I've put together a questionnaire and form to fill out but I have not had the chance to implement it yet.



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I see. I will not press you on it then.
I would suggest your examine what some churches use as a confession of faith.
It helps to keep a degree of unity among that local assembly. Prospective members could read it over to see if they are in agreement with it or not.