The Casual gospel

[Iconoclast]

"kyredneck,
(The Bible is very blunt and faithful in recording the sin and unbelief of God's children.)




I had to edit my post....the word "not " did not post.
While God's children can and do sin indeed...they are not under the dominion of the flesh.
They are under the dominion of the Spirit.

 

[InTheLight]

Ezk 36 :25-27 is for Christians.....
When you attend a dispensational church you get wrong ideas.

Ezekiel 36 is meant for Christians? Wherever do you get that idea?

Ez. 36:1 “Son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, ‘Mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord.
4 therefore, mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign Lord
6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills
12 I will cause people, my people Israel, to live on you.
17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions.
22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name,
24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

And you maintain that this passage is meant for Christians?

 

[kyredneck]

While God's children can and do sin indeed

Thank you.

So you admit the thief on the cross could have been an erring 'child of the Heavenly Zion' beforehand?

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you.

So you admit the thief on the cross could have been an erring 'child of the Heavenly Zion' beforehand?

I try not to speculate where scripture gives no indication.
If he was living in a way where he himself was identified as.... a thief......that indicates he was not living a Christian life.

There are no Christian thieves. ....for Jesus.
There are no Christian murderers ....for Jesus
1 Cor 6......says.....such were some of you.....not such are some of you.

 

[kyredneck]

Ezekiel 36 is meant for Christians?

Indeed. It's meant for the 'Israel of God':

10 and I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited, and the waste places shall be builded;
11 and I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and be fruitful; and I will cause you to be inhabited after your former estate, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am Jehovah.
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of children. Ezek 36
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.
26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God. Ro 9

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hos 1

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Ezekiel 36 is meant for Christians? Wherever do you get that idea?

Ez. 36:1 “Son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, ‘Mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord.
4 therefore, mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign Lord
6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills
12 I will cause people, my people Israel, to live on you.
17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions.
22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name,
24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

And you maintain that this passage is meant for Christians?

Icon will answer for himself, but of course it is! eg. John 10:16; Rom. 2:28-29; 9:8; 15:4; Gal. 3:7, 28; Eph. 2:13-14; Phil. 3:3.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ezekiel 36 is meant for Christians? Wherever do you get that idea?

Ez. 36:1 “Son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, ‘Mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord.
4 therefore, mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign Lord
6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills
12 I will cause people, my people Israel, to live on you.
17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions.
22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name,
24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

And you maintain that this passage is meant for Christians?

Yes... it is for Christians.
ITL.....gentiles grafted into the olive tree......
Branches were broken off in unbelief. ....correct?
Previously non covenant gentiles are grafted in to the same root promises......correct?
The root promises are one and the same.

Being born from above is from ezk 36....
Water and Spirit.....speak of the water of purification from numbers 19, and t h e Promise of the Spirit giving the new heart.

 

[InTheLight]

Icon will answer for himself, but of course it is! eg. John 10:16; Rom. 2:28-29; 9:8; 15:4; Gal. 3:7, 28; Eph. 2:13-14; Phil. 3:3.

Look, I can read. It's written to ISRAEL.

 

[InTheLight]

Yes... it is for Christians.
ITL.....gentiles grafted into the olive tree......
Branches were broken off in unbelief. ....correct?
Previously non covenant gentiles are grafted in to the same root promises......correct?
The root promises are one and the same.

Unbelievable amount of mental gymnastics that are required to twist this scripture into your theology. Very similar to the job done on 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[agedman]

Hello ITL
When you look at the promise of the New Covenant...from Jer.31 quoted in Hebrews 8...God declares He will put His law in the minds and hearts of His people.
Christians are His people.Christians are law keepers.
Ezk 36 :25-27 is for Christians.....jn 3.
When you attend a dispensational church you get wrong ideas.

Icon,
Perhaps I disagree with the thinking that only believers have the law of God written upon their hearts.

I would consider that the "light" given to all is the Decalogue (John 1). All social groups whether they know the Bible or not, have similar basic laws. Some would include, murder, thievery, ... and others would include worship. That doesn't make their laws righteous, nor a statement of the but merely to point to the law being a part of the makeup of every person.

"No, God" is just as common in the darkest heart as the most illuminated.

One doesn't have to attend a dispensational church to get wrong ideas. The enemy of believers thrives in all assemblies. Isn't that the point of Matthew 13:24-30?


What Jer. and Hebrews do (imo) is reinforce each other that the covenant of promise is given, and the old is passing (fading) away. The following chapters of Hebrews shows the sufficiency of Christ and therefore the fading away of the old pictures and practices.

What some mistake (imo) is taking the fading away of the old covenant to mean the physical / social / economic Israel is replaced or no longer a viable group to be seen as ever again the chosen of God. God has always had a subset of the larger chosen. It is seen in the typical assembly - the blend of the mixture of saved and unsaved.

Is it not possible for the new covenant to extend both mercy and grace to the physical / social / economic Israel under the new covenant in the same manner it is extended to the Gentile? Is it unreasonable to see the Scriptures in the manner that those that He purposely blinded, so that the Gentiles would be grafted in, have their eyes awakened, their sensibilities to the claim of Christ born?

Does not such authority rest with the Sovereignty of God in the doctrines of Grace that we teach?

Could it be that the old theological approaches that had little or no frame of reference from which to view this modern world, are needing some modification and realignment with Scriptures as we can actually be eye witness to prophetic fulfillment the older approaches could not consider and as a result largely marginalized or assigned to the gentile church?

 

[Iconoclast]

Unbelievable amount of mental gymnastics that are required to twist this scripture into your theology. Very similar to the job done on 2 Peter 3:9.

See the edit on ezk 36....
2 Peter 3 is quite clear....ever single person Peter is speaking of is going to be saved.
There are two words used...thelo and bulemai.....God has decreed destined and purposed that not one of them is going to be lost.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon,
Perhaps I disagree with the thinking that only believers have the law of God written upon their hearts.

I would consider that the "light" given to all is the Decalogue (John 1). All social groups whether they know the Bible or not, have similar basic laws. Some would include, murder, thievery, ... and others would include worship. That doesn't make their laws righteous, nor a statement of the but merely to point to the law being a part of the makeup of every person.

"No, God" is just as common in the darkest heart as the most illuminated.

One doesn't have to attend a dispensational church to get wrong ideas. The enemy of believers thrives in all assemblies. Isn't that the point of Matthew 13:24-30?


What Jer. and Hebrews do (imo) is reinforce each other that the covenant of promise is given, and the old is passing (fading) away. The following chapters of Hebrews shows the sufficiency of Christ and therefore the fading away of the old pictures and practices.

What some mistake (imo) is taking the fading away of the old covenant to mean the physical / social / economic Israel is replaced or no longer a viable group to be seen as ever again the chosen of God. God has always had a subset of the larger chosen. It is seen in the typical assembly - the blend of the mixture of saved and unsaved.

Is it not possible for the new covenant to extend both mercy and grace to the physical / social / economic Israel under the new covenant in the same manner it is extended to the Gentile? Is it unreasonable to see the Scriptures in the manner that those that He purposely blinded, so that the Gentiles would be grafted in, have their eyes awakened, their sensibilities to the claim of Christ born?

Does not such authority rest with the Sovereignty of God in the doctrines of Grace that we teach?

Could it be that the old theological approaches that had little or no frame of reference from which to view this modern world, are needing some modification and realignment with Scriptures as we can actually be eye witness to prophetic fulfillment the older approaches could not consider and as a result largely marginalized or assigned to the gentile church?

Agedman
You are correct the law is in everyman, however because of the lasting effects of the fall....man has a perverted understanding of it....Romans 8:7....that is exactly the point.
In salvation God restores the capacity of man to begin to obey the law to God's glory.That which was in type about ot Israel is now fulfilled in the Nt Israel.

 

[JonC]

Yes... it is for Christians.
ITL.....gentiles grafted into the olive tree......
Branches were broken off in unbelief. ....correct?
Previously non covenant gentiles are grafted in to the same root promises......correct?
The root promises are one and the same.

I don't know if we agree in our conclusion here (the root promise), but you make a point that is incredibly missed by many today. I can't tell you how many times I've seen it taught that the Church was basically a new people of God. I believe that the root promise here is God's promise to Abraham (that's the part where I'm not sure we would agree). But when we start looking at the Church divorced from the Old Testament then it seems to me we are bound for error. That error is viewing the New Covenant as independent of God's eternal plan of redemption as reflected in His covenant with Abraham. I've said here before that I believe we can view God's covenants as spokes in a wheel, the Abrahamic Covenant being the hub.

 

[InTheLight]

See the edit on ezk 36....

What?

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't know if we agree in our conclusion here (the root promise), but you make a point that is incredibly missed by many today. I can't tell you how many times I've seen it taught that the Church was basically a new people of God. I believe that the root promise here is God's promise to Abraham (that's the part where I'm not sure we would agree). But when we start looking at the Church divorced from the Old Testament then it seems to me we are bound for error. That error is viewing the New Covenant as independent of God's eternal plan of redemption as reflected in His covenant with Abraham. I've said here before that I believe we can view God's covenants as spokes in a wheel, the Abrahamic Covenant being the hub.

We do agree.....the covenant of Redemption, when passed on to man is passed on to Abraham as the covenant of grace.
Christ is the promised seed.....singular...gal 3:16-28.
And us IN HIM. one new man.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon will answer for himself, but of course it is! eg. John 10:16; Rom. 2:28-29; 9:8; 15:4; Gal. 3:7, 28; Eph. 2:13-14; Phil. 3:3.

Lol.... we are on the same page brother! !

 

[Iconoclast]

What?

I added a little bit to post 187....after you responded to it.

 

[agedman]

Agedman
You are correct the law is in everyman, however because of the lasting effects of the fall....man has a perverted understanding of it....Romans 8:7....that is exactly the point.
In salvation God restores the capacity of man to begin to obey the law to God's glory.That which was in type about ot Israel is now fulfilled in the Nt Israel.

We agree.

 

[JonC]

We do agree.....the covenant of Redemption, when passed on to man is passed on to Abraham as the covenant of grace.
Christ is the promised seed.....singular...gal 3:16-28.
And us IN HIM. one new man.

We are the spiritual descendants in terms of being children of the Promise (Rom 9:8), but yes, the promised Seed is singular (Christ) and it is us in Him. I don't necessarily view things in terms of Covenant Theology...although I was looking at Reformed Baptist belief recently (an experience with a Reformed "preacher" elsewhere has pretty much dissuaded me for now), but you and I do essentially agree in terms of the identity of the Church. Which means that Ezekiel 36 is not only meant for the Church but is also looking forward to that time when this will be done.

That passage (Ezekiel 36) is one of the clearest expressions of the message of redemption, IMHO, that we can find...the gospel of course being that this redemption has indeed arrived.

 

[Iconoclast]

We agree.

Psalm 133