Featured The Casual gospel

Jon C
Do not let a bad experience keep you from following the truth.
Some reformed baptist men have come from other backrounds and each man is just that...a man...so there will be some strange things that go on.
We as baptists are a little late to the party when it comes to understanding the covenants.
I have been a reformed baptist for awhile.
There is soul liberty and when among other RB I can be as critical of some ideas there as well.....we each give account of ourselves to God.
I use the labels and believe they are helpful. ....but it is the truth that we are to prize more than a label.

 

It was written to Israel indeed.
They were the people of God when ezk is written,
If ezk wrote it to Mexico. ....they would have no idea who or what he was talking about.
The promised seed however was for all nations however.
That is the part Israel did not understand.
THAT Is THE Point Of MANY Of THE KINGDOM parables.

 

As ITL noted, Ezekiel 36 is a passage of Scripture with promises directly given to the nation of Israel.
For example,
Ezekiel 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

This is yet unfulfilled, but someday will be fulfilled, literally. The great hermeneutical mistake of some here is to deny the existence of Israel, or to teach a form of Replacement Theology, which among orthodox Christianity is a known heresy. The RCC believes that she has replaced Israel. This is a Catholic doctrine.

In salvation when a Jew becomes saved he leaves his false religion and becomes a Christian, a part of the bride of Christ, whom Christ will come for. When a Gentile is saved he leaves his paganism and becomes a Christian and becomes a part of the bride Christ whom Christ will come from. Both Jew and Gentile: we are one in Christ. There is no difference any longer.

However Israel still exists. The Christian cannot claim to be Israel, or Israel's replacement, or Israel's extension. That is absolute error and nowhere taught in Scriptures.

Consider:
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
--Paul delineates:
1. The Jews.
2. The Gentiles.
3. The church of God.
--The Jews and the Gentiles, as well as the church existed together side by side. The church had not replaced Israel, or had not become an extension of Israel by 55 A.D. when the epistle was written, or some 25 years after Pentecost had taken place.

Paul writes to the Romans:
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
--His earnest desire, even to the extent that he himself could trade places with them spiritually, was that Israel should be saved. He defines Israel--those to whom the covenants and law were given. By those ones, of the flesh, by whom Christ came. It was this nation that Paul was praying for. He was very specific. He prays for their salvation.
--Either Paul was a lunatic, a madman, perhaps even a liar, or the nation of Israel still existed, and this some 30 years after Pentecost.

He says the same thing in chapter 10:
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
--He prays for the nation of Israel to be saved.
Either they existed or they didn't. If they didn't Paul is lying and is deceived.

This is evidence enough that the church did not replace Israel nor is it an extension of Israel.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
--At this time God is calling out a nation to himself. They may be Muslims, Jews, Gentiles, Hindus, etc. But once they trust Christ they leave their religion behind: Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, paganism, etc. and follow Christ. We are all one in Christ. We are that holy nation that Christ is calling out in this day and age.
Israel still exists. In 1948 the UN officially granted Israel nation status. She still exists as a nation and that cannot be denied. Ezekiel 36 contains promises for that nation. Christ will come for her.

 

DHK,

There is much here were I would agree.

However, I do consider the gentiles are "grafted into" the original believing Israeli group not a separate body as some would hold.

I take that from Romans 11. There were SOME Israeli "broken off" that the gentile believers be grafted in to the bride in their place.

So, I accept that the church (the Bride) is the focus of what Christ came and what He redeems and that focus has not changed from the time of the first sacrifice by God in the garden to cloth Adam and Eve.

What I also hold is that God does not forsake the promises given to the national group in which for a time has been kept from the truth. There are prophecies that belong to that group in which we (should I tarry) will realize as being fulfilled.

Therefore, I can claim the promises by adoption that were given to the national / political group who will as it pleases God be again awakened and found in Him.

 

In Romans 9 it specifically says that the covenants were given to Israel.
In Ezekiel 36:28, Christ promises that he will bring Israel into their Promised Land.
--What promised land is that? Will you also go to Israel when they go to Israel, when their Redeemer comes? Will you even be here when that comes? How do you know?

If you accept their promises or covenants will you also accept the consequences of them?
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
--He is writing to the Jews. Will you be anywhere near Judea when this occurs? Even if you are alive at this event, you will probably be in America. How would you flee to Judea? And why?

 

Studies have shown that dispensationalism kills brain cells.

Studies have also shown that dispensationalism leads people away from the truth and keeps them from verses that apply to them

 

So much to disagree with. Where to start?

Gal. 3:7. 'Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.'
Phil. 3:3. For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh.
There is only one people of God- converted Jew and converted Gentile (John 10:16).

Indeed He does: unconverted Jews, unconverted Gentiles, and the people of God.

Amen! What was conditional to Israel (Exod. 19:5-6), is unconditional to the New Covenant people of God (Heb. 8:10 etc.). Not 'Replacement Theology' but Inclusion Theology. Biggrin

 

Do you have a link? I'd love to see proof of both claims...especially the brain cell one

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

Brother Icon,

I have not read, but only a few posts here and there on this thread, ,but I believe the gospel is a simple declaration (not an offer as are Arminian brothers would have us to believe). Paul lays out exactly what it is, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scripture" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

First, the hearer must be able to "receive" the message (I do not take this to mean to "accept Jesus into their heart, but rather to only believe/have faith in the message and understand it). Second, the facts of the gospel our that Christ died for our sins, thus under the conviction of the Holy Spirit the hearer must recognize that #1 he is in need of a savior by recognizing he is a sinner with no other hope than Christ and B) trust in Jesus alone by faith that He died for their sins to save them. Third, he must by faith believe Jesus rose from for our justification.

Because faith in the gospel is a work of the Holy Spirit and not the wisdom and understanding of man, we must not limit it by saying only grown adults are capable of having true faith and repentance in the gospel due to limited mental faculties of say four year olds. Scripture attests to this, " thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts" (Psalm 22:9) and Jesus himself said, "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."" (Matthew 19:14) John the Baptist had the Spirit while in his mother's womb. Also, worth keeping in mind is regeneration precedes faith in the gospel. and we do not know a precise time of how much a gap can exist before faith in the gospel comes to a regenerate (for example with Cornelius it appears to have been perhaps years before Peter came to him), but if the baby or toddler has the Holy Spirit he is still born again though he may not have yet heard the gospel

Finally, are any of the children who "say the Lords prayer" or "come forward for an altar call" due to peer pressure or to make mommy and daddy happy that as such may be false converts, I am sure there are probably many, but that is not for are place to judge, In my church, a confession of faith is necessary before baptism and subsequent acceptance as a member of the church. Who is one to question such as valid? No "offer" of salvation is ever presented, thus more than likely it wouldn't be a peer pressure response or a "save me from Hell" confession of faith as we believe only the atonement for His people and subsequent regeneration without means (including the gospel) can save one. Belief in the gospel is only an evidence of being saved, not how one becomes saved just as faith is "fruit" of the spirit and one must first have the tree (the Holy Spirit) that produces the fruit. the key is this, if the gospel is presented in the right manner as Paul laid it out, and not as an "offer", a "come forward" experience, a "sinners prayer" acceptance, or a Sunday School pressuring, I believe the amount of false converts would be greatly reduced of both the grown and non grown up variety.

Brother Joe

 

These are all great questions let me answer them and from the shortness of time left, I will not give Scripture, for you know them as well as me.

I have two answers to give, the current human course in history and the future. First the future.

1. What promised land is that? The land extended to the fullest measure promised in Scriptures. Remember, that no where in the OT does Israel occupy all that God gave them. But such occupation will take place, for it was promised.
2. Will you also go to Israel when they go to Israel, when their Redeemer comes? Of course! My redeemer comes at the final days of the Great Tribulation when the final moments of the battle of the series called Armageddon is raging, and the redeemed return with the King of Kings.
   
3. Will you even be here when that comes? I will be with Him when He comes.
   
4. How do you know? The Scriptures state the matter most clearly.

The present course of history answers:

1. What promised land is that? The land promised to Abraham.
   
2. Will you also go to Israel when they go to Israel, when their Redeemer comes? Yes, I will be there.
   
3. Will you even be here when that comes? Because I hope for a pre-trib rapture, but am content to know that if such is delayed, then I can say with Job:
   “As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
   And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
   
   “Even after my skin is destroyed,
   Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
   
   Whom I myself shall behold,
   And whom my eyes will see and not another.
   My heart faints within me!"
   
   
4. How do you know? The promises of God are without change.
5. If you accept their promises or covenants will you also accept the consequences of them? Not all the promises of God are given to me. Some are given to the national / political group and some to the redeemed of the national / political group. I may by adoption partake of the promises given to the redeemed.

If things continue as they are, there will be no "America" and where can one flee to escape the wrath of God? The mountains? They offer no protection for the mountains and valleys the snow caps and the ocean depths offer no place in which God is not already abiding.

But, I understand your intent in offering the questions (rhetorical as they are).

One of the reasons why I do not adopt all that the covenant only folks embrace, just as I do not join to all the dispensational folks hang their hat upon is that neither fit Scriptures as the prophecies are being revealed.

There is one promise that I hold more precious than any other in Scripture. That first heard by the Apostles and by extension I too cherish. "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

So, wherever I am, I am with the Lord.

 

I will produce such links when you answer the questions in the Romans 9 - 15 thread then I work on producing the links in the meantime just carefully observe the responses of fellow dispensationalists and how they deny the obviousWink

 

Please don't think I ignored you on the Romans thread...I want to take my time reading and discussing and I just haven't had the time yet

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

That is true. But today that people is known as the Bride of Christ.
Is it not interesting that the last of the great prophets, John the Baptist, did not consider himself as part of the Bride, but only a friend of the Bride. Christ is coming for his Bride--NT believers.

You have the right to your opinion and the right to be wrong and refuse the truth.
Paul made a distinct differentiation which you refuse to accept. He went to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. He entered into the Jewish synagogue and then he turned to the Gentile. He prayed for his nation, the nation of Israel as he then prayed for the Gentiles, as the Gentiles in the Corinthian church. He always made a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile, even when they were unsaved.
When they were saved there was no difference. We are one in Christ. We are never referred to as Israel. That is entirely a spiritual designation and that is all.

We are not included in the promises and covenants given to Israel. If that is true then you would be putting yourself under the law.
What about the covenant in Exodus 31 to keep the Sabbath?
What about the covenant of circumcision?
You have put yourself under the law, and have become no better than the Judaizers whom Paul condemned.

 

Take your time....enjoy the.process.....

 

Why does it have to be conditional, don't you know anything about grace

 

Yes grace and mercy looking at the list of the recent post by fellow dispensationalist it will be a great great mercy

 

But what is this so-called "casual gospel"?
The OP refuses to define it. It gives a general description but no specifics.
Some here think that the author is speaking of those who believe in dispensationalism. Do all dispensationalists preach a casual gospel? Is that what the author of the OP is inferring?
Is he speaking of Joel Osteen?
Unless he defines who he is speaking of, his OP is just hearsay.

 

Wait a minute...i thought you got your theology from other men's books?