Eternal security

[thjplgvp]

I read a posted question on the internet and then perused a few of the answers and was surprised that the doctrine of eternal security was said to be a doctrine that came out of the reformation? Surely this doctrine was in place hundreds of years prior to the reformation era. The simplicity of being "sealed unto the day of redemption" or the phrase "has eternal life" or 1 John 5:13 would cause one to understand that salvation is eternal. Even Titus states Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

With these verses in mind it is hard to conceive that some would associate this doctrine solely with the reformation era. Any have historical information to support or deny this viewpoint?

What are you thoughts?

thjplgvp

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (I prefer that to 'eternal security') is certainly Biblical, but somewhere along the way it got lost. To this very day the Church of Rome denies that anyone can know he is saved, so it is not surprising if its recovery did not come about until the Reformation.

 

[thjplgvp]

Thanks for the reply brother. In doing a little reading this afternoon it seems that generally speaking only Baptists hold to the doctrine of eternal security though it pops up various groups from time to time. Not to create divisive debate but as I understand the doctrine of perseverance of the saints it seems to fall nearly into a works based salvation. If the only way I can prove or show or give evidence I am saved is by persevering then it would seem I would be unwilling and even fearful of showing otherwise and at that point would I not struggle with knowing I am saved?

My teaching "which I believe to be biblical" not saying the other views are not we all use the same bible, is that once I have received Christ I simply trust God to fulfill his promises. If I am predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ then that work is in process from the time I get saved until I arrive at heavens portal. My salvation and redemption are part of the ongoing work of Christ and I am assured of my arrival by the sealing of the Holy Spirit which is the earnest or down payment of my eventual complete and total redemption.

These seem to me to very basic teachings of scripture which support eternal security. I understand that you are saying somewhere along the line this doctrine got lost or set aside but surely there was a remnant of faith through the ages that did not lose this doctrine and similarly the doctrine of Baptism by immersion.

Once again any dialog is welcome. Mr. Moderator thank you for moving this post to the correct area.

thjplgvp

 

[kyredneck]

as I understand the doctrine of perseverance of the saints it seems to fall nearly into a works based salvation

Excellent perception on your part. 'Preservation of the saints', i.e. eternal security, is biblical.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

From the 1689 Baptist Confession of faith

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints

1. Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )

2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3. And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

I've posted this extract because there may be some confusion as to what the 'Perseverance of the saints' actually is. I'd also like to give two Scripture extracts for further discussion.

Acts 26:19-20. Therefore....I.....declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God and do works befitting repentance.' (cf. Luke 3:8).

Romans 6:16ff. 'Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves to sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered, and having been set free from sin you became slaves of righteousness.'

 

[JamesL]

The part which came out of the Reformation is the unbiblical notion that Perseverance and Security are synonymous, interchangeable notions.

We are eternally secure - regardless of perseverance, regardless of works, regardless of failure, irrespective of our own efforts.

2Tim 2:12
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

2Tim 2:12
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself.

Would you please explain exactly what you think this verse means? Particularly, how do you understand the word 'faithless' in the light of 'Salvation by Faith Alone'?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My teaching "which I believe to be biblical" not saying the other views are not we all use the same bible, is that once I have received Christ I simply trust God to fulfill his promises.

So what do you think we are taught in, say, John 14:15? 'If you love Me, keep My commandments.' Can we receive Christ without loving Him? In the light of the verse, can we claim to love Him if we make no effort to keep His commandments?

If I am predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ then that work is in process from the time I get saved until I arrive at heavens portal.

How do you think that understanding fits with Matt. 7:21-23 and 1 John 3:3?

My salvation and redemption are part of the ongoing work of Christ and I am assured of my arrival by the sealing of the Holy Spirit which is the earnest or down payment of my eventual complete and total redemption.

If the Holy Spirit is 'the Spirit of holiness' (Rom. 1:4), and if 'Without [holiness] no one will see the Lord' (Heb. 12:14), why would someone living an unholy life think he was sealed by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Internet Theologian]

Thanks for the reply brother. In doing a little reading this afternoon it seems that generally speaking only Baptists hold to the doctrine of eternal security though it pops up various groups from time to time.

Many evangelicals believe this Biblical doctrine and is not limited to Baptists generally. I hear this often though, as you do, that in general people attribute this to Baptists almost exclusively.

Not to create divisive debate but as I understand the doctrine of perseverance of the saints it seems to fall nearly into a works based salvation. If the only way I can prove or show or give evidence I am saved is by persevering then it would seem I would be unwilling and even fearful of showing otherwise and at that point would I not struggle with knowing I am saved?

It is not that the believer here is dependent upon some work of his efforts, but of the internal workings of God, Php. 2:13. Apostatizing from the faith simply means the person was not truly converted, 1 John 2:19, 1 Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:13.

My teaching "which I believe to be biblical" not saying the other views are not we all use the same bible, is that once I have received Christ I simply trust God to fulfill his promises. If I am predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ then that work is in process from the time I get saved until I arrive at heavens portal. My salvation and redemption are part of the ongoing work of Christ and I am assured of my arrival by the sealing of the Holy Spirit which is the earnest or down payment of my eventual complete and total redemption.

The above is a basic explanation of the perseverance of the saints. Many read the phrase and believe it to be some effort solely dependent upon the effort of man, it is not, it is God's work in the believer, Php. 1:6. There is also the cooperation of sanctification which is evidence of salvation, Hebrews 12:14, but is wrought by the Spirits work in the truly converted, Ez. 36:27.

These seem to me to very basic teachings of scripture which support eternal security. I understand that you are saying somewhere along the line this doctrine got lost or set aside but surely there was a remnant of faith through the ages that did not lose this doctrine and similarly the doctrine of Baptism by immersion.

Once again any dialog is welcome. Mr. Moderator thank you for moving this post to the correct area.

thjplgvp

Yes, agreed, this is basic Scriptural teaching. The RCC does not want any person to believe in this Biblical doctrine as her power over them would be lost to truth.

 

[thjplgvp]

So what do you think we are taught in, say, John 14:15? 'If you love Me, keep My commandments.' Can we receive Christ without loving Him? In the light of the verse, can we claim to love Him if we make no effort to keep His commandments?

To answer your question honestly I would say yes you can get saved without loving God or Christ. Clearly we are told in scripture that he first loved us, therefore the concept of loving him prior to salvation is not likely. But as we grow in Christ then one of the proofs of that growth is growing in love.

Take my marriage for example when I met my wife there was first a mental and physical attraction one to another (at least I hope she was attracted to me lol) when we married we truly had no idea what true love was and now it has been nearly 47 years and trust me as we have faced the obstacles of life together learning to trust one another coupled with the pruning and watering of God's stewards along the way we now have a truer understanding of love as in our service to one another shows. in my case I am sorry to say my wife loved me first and slowly in our marriage I began to reciprocate that love and now she can ask me to do anything and I will do it. She does not have to command me simply ask and I will give her the world if possible.

In my mind this is the same principle spoken of in your post as we draw closer to Christ our love is revealed in how we respond to the commands of God, willingly or grudgingly. Both are obedience but which would God want us to evidence? I can persevere grudgingly or I can persevere lovingly so I do not see that persevering in this case can equated to "if you love me keep my commandments"

We serve out of love not to prove our love.

Thank you for the response.

thjplgvp

 

[thjplgvp]

If the Holy Spirit is 'the Spirit of holiness' (Rom. 1:4), and if 'Without [holiness] no one will see the Lord' (Heb. 12:14), why would someone living an unholy life think he was sealed by the Holy Spirit?[/QUOTE]

Hello again my brother. in thinking about your post I find myself first asking what we each believe about the above verses. To take these verses and force them into the context OSAS or Perseverance is quite a stretch even in the realm of biblical application. First in Romans 1:4 Paul is speaking to the fact that the Spirit of Holiness declares Jesus to be the Son of God with power which in our discussion has nothing to do with OSAS. 2ndly Hebrews 12:14 is not speaking of seeing God person to person but in living a peaceable and holy life before others as a means of them seeing the holiness of God through you. therefore verse 15 makes it clear that should we fail in demonstrating the grace of God in our lives we can allow bitterness to spring up defiling many and blocking or hindering their view of God.

If these short interpretations are in line with your interpretations I fail to see how you can use them in support or proof texts of eternal security or PoS. I we interpret these verses differently please explain your interpretation so I can see where you are coming from.

Thank you for your kind reply.

thjplgvp

 

[thjplgvp]

To Internet Theologian,

Thank you for your kind response I enjoyed reading it.

thjplgvp

 

[Martin Marprelate]

To answer your question honestly I would say yes you can get saved without loving God or Christ. Clearly we are told in scripture that he first loved us, therefore the concept of loving him prior to salvation is not likely.

Thanks for your reply, Thjplgvp. God has loved His people with an everlasting love (Jer. 31:3; Eph. 1:4), so there is no chance of us loving Him before He loved us. Is it really possible for someone to believe that Christ suffered and died for his sins, and to trust in Him for salvation without loving Him? Surely not!!

 

[kyredneck]

'Salvation by Faith Alone'

What the bible says about 'Salvation by Faith Alone':

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Jas 2:24

 

[kyredneck]

you can get saved without loving God or Christ

6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2

 

[thjplgvp]

Thanks for your reply, Thjplgvp. God has loved His people with an everlasting love (Jer. 31:3; Eph. 1:4), so there is no chance of us loving Him before He loved us. Is it really possible for someone to believe that Christ suffered and died for his sins, and to trust in Him for salvation without loving Him? Surely not!!

Brother Martin,
I am not sure I understand your wording real clearly so if I misinterpret please forgive me in advance.
Why would one need to love God before salvation? If I may ask you a personal question how did you love God before you were saved? Did you love him in conviction of your sin or perhaps you loved him while confessing your sin or is it possible you loved or came to love Him after you received eternal life? To my knowledge there is no command to love God before salvation even the Ten Commandments are written to those who said they were God's people and were therefore given as proofs they needed more than the law the implication being they could not love God under the law.

I am not saying I am absolutely right on this stand only that humanly speaking I cannot see an error in my judgment. Yourself or anyone else is free to respond my earlier post and offer wisdom I would appreciate it.

Thanks again for posting

For those wondering I use the anagram of my name to help me remember Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

thjplgvp

 

[tyndale1946]

6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2

AHHHHH YES!... The comfort and peace of eternal security to enemies and sinners of God that deserved eternal damnation... For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God... What an illustration at the cross of Jesus Christ... Brother Glen

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[Internet Theologian]

To answer your question honestly I would say yes you can get saved without loving God or Christ. Clearly we are told in scripture that he first loved us, therefore the concept of loving him prior to salvation is not likely. But as we grow in Christ then one of the proofs of that growth is growing in love.
thjplgvp

I'm sorry, but what you say isn't true my friend:

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. 1 Corinthians 16:22

If what you said were true then these alleged believers better get to growing or they're going to face damnation.

 

[thjplgvp]

I'm sorry, but what you say isn't true my friend:

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. 1 Corinthians 16:22

If what you said were true then these alleged believers better get to growing or they're going to face damnation.

Forgive me again if you would please.

The original question asked by Martin was " Can we receive Christ without loving Him?" my reply is yes you can receive Christ without loving him however I thought I made it clear but perhaps not, you cannot grow in Christ with out loving him. As far as 1 Corinthians 16:22 I believe it is clear that Paul is not writing to the unsaved but to the saved at the conclusion of several chapters concerning love and our behavior toward one another and the gifts. In that context he would seem to be advising the Corinthians one last time that they need to grow in love and not just in gifts.

I want to clarify I no way believe you can grow in Christ with out coming to love and worship him but that is not the same as saying we must love him to be initially saved for I do not believe anyone truly loved God before he was saved. And for those who hold to the doctrine of Tulip if would go against everything they teach to imply man had to love God before salvation.

I believe I have just been misunderstood or at least I hope so.

thjplgvp

 

[Martin Marprelate]

First in Romans 1:4 Paul is speaking to the fact that the Spirit of Holiness declares Jesus to be the Son of God with power which in our discussion has nothing to do with OSAS. 2ndly Hebrews 12:14 is not speaking of seeing God person to person but in living a peaceable and holy life before others as a means of them seeing the holiness of God through you. therefore verse 15 makes it clear that should we fail in demonstrating the grace of God in our lives we can allow bitterness to spring up defiling many and blocking or hindering their view of God.

Romans 1:4 declares the Holy Spirit to be 'the Spirit of holiness.' My question is whether one can be indwelt by the Spirit of holiness and still live an unholy life. I don't see that the context of the verse has any bearing here.
Again, Heb. 12:15 says what it says: without holiness no man will see the Lord. I think this is supported by verses like Gal. 5:21 and 1 Cor. 6:9-10.

Why would one need to love God before salvation? If I may ask you a personal question how did you love God before you were saved? Did you love him in conviction of your sin or perhaps you loved him while confessing your sin or is it possible you loved or came to love Him after you received eternal life?

I don't understand you at all. Where have I so much as hinted about anyone loving Christ before salvation? I ask you if you did not love Him when you trusted in Him for salvation. Is it possible for someone to see Christ's blood as shed for him, repent and trust in that blood for salvation and yet hate Him or be indifferent to Him? Really? Certainly it is possible for one's love for Christ to grow as one comes to a deeper understanding, and so it should, but I cannot see how one can be saved while indifferent to our Lord.