Eternal security

[Internet Theologian]

Forgive me again if you would please.

The original question asked by Martin was " Can we receive Christ without loving Him?" my reply is yes you can receive Christ without loving him however I thought I made it clear but perhaps not, you cannot grow in Christ with out loving him.

I understood all of what was said, no need to ask forgiveness. There is nothing in Scripture that says that at that point, a person receiving Christ, may not even love Him. This is why I gave you the text of 1 Cor. 16:22. Such a person would prove lost.

Are you implying that a saved person may or may not love God?

As far as 1 Corinthians 16:22 I believe it is clear that Paul is not writing to the unsaved but to the saved at the conclusion of several chapters concerning love and our behavior toward one another and the gifts. In that context he would seem to be advising the Corinthians one last time that they need to grow in love and not just in gifts.

Paul mentions the unsaved as a warning concerning not being deceived in his letters to the churches. It is the same language here. He.does this often enough, it is not unusual, and he does so again in 1 Cor. 16:22.

I want to clarify I no way believe you can grow in Christ with out coming to love and worship him but that is not the same as saying we must love him to be initially saved for I do not believe anyone truly loved God before he was saved.

All of this is a given. All the lost hate God pre-conversion, all the converted love God at conversion. A person loves Christ at the moment he or she is a babe in Christ and so too the mature in Christ.

And for those who hold to the doctrine of Tulip if would go against everything they teach to imply man had to love God before salvation. I believe I have just been misunderstood or at least I hope so.

thjplgvp

No, I do not believe you have been misunderstood but your last statement above shows a clear objective of your thread, a straw man and polemic against the DoG. What you are presenting is what appears to be you thinking you've found something that does away with the teachings of those who adhere to this Biblical doctrine.

That is quite the contrary my friend.

The Reformed (I use this to describe cals/DoG folks as well) believe all those outside of Christ are at enmity with God and hostile in their minds toward Him, Romans 8:7, Col. 1:21, cannot please Him, Romans 8:8, and cannot receive anything from Him until conversion, 1 Cor. 2:14. None who are lost seek God, none are righteous etc, Romans 3:10ff. This all demonstrates without the intervention of God, that man, in his fallen state cannot love God until God does a work of the Spirit in the heart. When we see such a person come to please God, love God, seek after God then this is evidence of conversion. Regeneration is a necessity for any person to love God.

 

[Internet Theologian]

If the Holy Spirit is 'the Spirit of holiness' (Rom. 1:4), and if 'Without [holiness] no one will see the Lord' (Heb. 12:14), why would someone living an unholy life think he was sealed by the Holy Spirit?

2ndly Hebrews 12:14 is not speaking of seeing God person to person but in living a peaceable and holy life before others as a means of them seeing the holiness of God through you.

You're amiss here on Hebrews 12:14. 'No man (or 'no one')' is not referencing another party outside of the context of this letter, but is addressing those to whom this letter is written specifically. It is a caveat, warning, it isn't entailing witnessing to others, and the context does not even remotely support your theory here.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Forgive me again if you would please.

The original question asked by Martin was " Can we receive Christ without loving Him?" my reply is yes you can receive Christ without loving him however I thought I made it clear but perhaps not, you cannot grow in Christ with out loving him. As far as 1 Corinthians 16:22 I believe it is clear that Paul is not writing to the unsaved but to the saved at the conclusion of several chapters concerning love and our behavior toward one another and the gifts. In that context he would seem to be advising the Corinthians one last time that they need to grow in love and not just in gifts.

I want to clarify I no way believe you can grow in Christ with out coming to love and worship him but that is not the same as saying we must love him to be initially saved for I do not believe anyone truly loved God before he was saved. And for those who hold to the doctrine of Tulip if would go against everything they teach to imply man had to love God before salvation.

I believe I have just been misunderstood or at least I hope so.

thjplgvp

Hi brother,

We love Christ as a sure result of becoming born from above, not prior to being born again. "We love Him because he first loved us", here we see both the cause and effect, that is the love of Christ toward us produces the sure effect of a love by His people for Him. The cause and effect relationship is clearly laid out in the key word of the verse "because" as is the sequence in time of Him first loving us, then we love Him. All true believers will love the Lord Jesus Christ after, but not prior to being born again. Prior to being born again, our natural man the flesh has nothing in us that is capable of loving Him.

 

[thjplgvp]

Hello Martin,

Obviously I misunderstood your question originally when you asked "Can we receive Christ without loving Him?" I thought you were implying before salvation and you were actually saying after being saved. My apologies I miss interpreted your question. So that I am not misunderstood I believe that the unsaved man responds to the conviction of the Holy Spirit which reveals the truth of our lostness and the truth that Jesus died for us. When we receive Christ then and only then do we have the capacity to love God i.e. Christ. But I also believe that our love can grow to be much more than our initial love of God.

If you belief differently than this so be it I am content with my understanding of scripture as I am sure you are quite resolute in your understanding.

Thank you for your reply my brother it has been my privilege to chat.

thjplgvp

 

[thjplgvp]

Are you implying that a saved person may or may not love God?

Not at all my brother. What I was saying is that before one is saved he cannot love God. Our love for the Savior is post salvation and not pre salvation.

thjplgvp

 

[thjplgvp]

Hi brother,

We love Christ as a sure result of becoming born from above, not prior to being born again. "We love Him because he first loved us", here we see both the cause and effect, that is the love of Christ toward us produces the sure effect of a love by His people for Him. The cause and effect relationship is clearly laid out in the key word of the verse "because" as is the sequence in time of Him first loving us, then we love Him. All true believers will love the Lord Jesus Christ after, but not prior to being born again. Prior to being born again, our natural man the flesh has nothing in us that is capable of loving Him.

Brother Joseph your reply was exactly what I believe obviously I was missing something either in my understanding of Martins post or in my response. well stated.

thjplgvp

 

[Internet Theologian]

Not at all my brother. What I was saying is that before one is saved he cannot love God. Our love for the Savior is post salvation and not pre salvation.

thjplgvp

Good, I would think all of us would agree with this and see this as a given, as this is Biblical. It looks like your implication that those who agree with TULIP to believe otherwise is simply a misnomer.