Biblical Assertion

[Van]

What Paul taught is this: 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Cor. 2:14). Now, is spiritual milk one of the things of the Spirit of God? Yes or no?

Yes! But does 1 Cor. 2:14 say "all" spiritual things or "some spiritual things, spiritual meat." No verse contextually considered supports "total spiritual inability."

Of course fallen people respond to the Gospel! Otherwise no one could ever be saved. And of course the fields are white unto harvest; there will be a vast crowd that no man can number standing before the throne at the Last day and we have to bring them in. But they will only come as God opens their hearts to receive the Gospel. 'Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul' (Acts 16:14). 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him' (John 6:44).

Why do you continue to post the same bogus arguments, Opened her heart simply means explained it in a way she could understand. The idea you can claim this refers to irresistible grace is without merit. And certainly no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws them. But this does not mean compel with irresistible grace. None of the verses you cite actually say what you claim.

 

[Van]

Just a quick note, if the fields are white for the harvest, they are ready to receive the gospel, that is why more workers are needed. The idea is not that all these people have been regenerated.

 

[Van]

I Agedman, you can say you do not see them, but all that means is you are in denial.

I see several efforts to "define" being "dead in our sins" as being without spiritual ability. Again, no scripture supports this perversion. When we are united with Christ, we are made alive. Therefore when we are separated from God we are "dead" spiritually. And being "dead" means we are unable to save ourselves. But it does not mean we cannot respond affirmatively to the gospel, as demonstrated in Matthew 13.​

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When we are united with Christ we are made alive. You can claim you are unfamiliar with Ephesians 2:5, but I am sure interested readers are not so unfamiliar with Scripture. In Christ = alive; not in Christ = dead.

Next you attempt to rewrite Matthew 13, where Jesus speaks in parables to prevent understanding, thus teaching they had some spiritual ability. You side has nothing but nullification and denial.​

 

[Rippon]

Yes! But does 1 Cor. 2:14 say "all" spiritual things or "some spiritual things, spiritual meat." No verse contextually considered supports "total spiritual inability."

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and canot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

How much plainer does it have to be expressed? This person does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. This person cannot understand spiritual things --cannot --unable --impossible.

Things of a spiritual nature are foolishness. Look at 1 Cor. 1:18 :
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

A person without the Spirit --who regards spiritual things as foolishness --cannot understand them is lost --perishing.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Van, what did those four soils in Matthew 13 do to receive the seed? Nothing. Yet, the bad ones had nothing that would make the seed grow and bear fruit. The one good ground had the seed grow and produce fruit.

The fig tree the that wasn't producing figs, the keeper fertilized it and it began to grow. We are those fig tree that were unfruitful until an outside Source, Christ, gave us an ability to produce fruit.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes! But does 1 Cor. 2:14 say "all" spiritual things or "some spiritual things, spiritual meat." No verse contextually considered supports "total spiritual inability."

Well actually, 1 Cor. 2:14 does. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.'

Would you like to parse the verse, or explain the intricacies of the Greek to us, in order to explain to us why the plain statement, 'But the natural man does not receive the things of God' actually means 'But the natural man does receive some of the things of God.'

Then you can get to work and explain why Matt. 11:27, John 6:44 and several other verses don't mean what they so clearly do.

 

[Van]

Well actually, 1 Cor. 2:14 does. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.'

Would you like to parse the verse, or explain the intricacies of the Greek to us, in order to explain to us why the plain statement, 'But the natural man does not receive the things of God' actually means 'But the natural man does receive some of the things of God.'

Then you can get to work and explain why Matt. 11:27, John 6:44 and several other verses don't mean what they so clearly do.

As I have explained many times in the past, "the things of the Spirit" means some of the things of the Spirit because of the context. The fact is not based on Greek grammar, but on context.

Matthew 11:27 means what it says. Christ's will, made plain at the end of Matthew, is to reveal himself through gospel to everyone. And as I explained already in this thread, John 6:44 means what it says, we must be drawn by the gospel in order to come to Jesus, and those who come to Jesus will be raised up on the last day. So you are three for three, you have cited three verses, none of which support in the slightest the mistaken doctrine of total spiritual inability.

 

[Van]

Van, what did those four soils in Matthew 13 do to receive the seed? Nothing. Yet, the bad ones had nothing that would make the seed grow and bear fruit. The one good ground had the seed grow and produce fruit.

The fig tree the that wasn't producing figs, the keeper fertilized it and it began to grow. We are those fig tree that were unfruitful until an outside Source, Christ, gave us an ability to produce fruit.

Not sure what your point is, the lost do not produce fruit. The seed grew to a degree in three of the soils. Thus, once again, limited spiritual ability is taught by scripture. And certainly no one produces fruit unless indwelt, John 15:5. Again this truth does not support the idea of total spiritual inability concerning responding to the gospel, for the gospel is the power of God for salvation.

 

[Rippon]

As I have explained many times in the past, "the things of the Spirit" means some of the things of the Spirit because of the context. The fact is not based on Greek grammar, but on context.

Hello! You will find no biblical commentator who agrees with your flipped-out understanding of 1 Cor. 2:14.

Matthew 11:27 means what it says.

The part of the verse that is relevant :...no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
John 5:21 : ...the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Luke 10:22 : ...no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Those verses run counter to your view.

Christ's will, made plain at the end of Matthew, is to reveal himself through gospel to everyone.

No, Matthew 28:19 and 20 is speaking of what we call the Great Commission. Every single person has not and shall not hear the Gospel --especially those living before the time of His ministry. Our task, as believers, is to spread the Gospel and to teach others --to disciple them.

And as I explained already in this thread, John 6:44 means what it says, we must be drawn by the gospel in order to come to Jesus, and those who come to Jesus will be raised up on the last day.

No one can can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

It doesn't mention the Gospel here. It says that those, and only those, whom the Father draws will come to Jesus. And Jesus will raise them up on the Last Day.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Not sure what your point is, the lost do not produce fruit.

Uhhh, better recheck that. Bad trees produce bad fruit. It's fruit, but bad fruit.

The seed grew to a degree in three of the soils.

No disagreement here, mon ami.

Thus, once again, limited spiritual ability is taught by scripture.

I do not see how that proves limited spiritual ability. No one is partially dead or partially alive. They are either dead or living. That is the way with our spirit. It is either nekros or it is not. There is no middle ground here, mon ami.

And certainly no one produces fruit unless indwelt, John 15:5.

Again, bad trees produce bad fruit, monsieur.

Again this truth does not support the idea of total spiritual inability concerning responding to the gospel, for the gospel is the power of God for salvation.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,[Eph. 1:13]

Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live.[Isa. 55:3a]

Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.[John 5:25]

All of these show that it takes hearing to come to Christ. Now, it is much more than the natural man that needs to hear, but the spirit within man that needs to hear. The spirit within man, prior to regeneration, is dead, is nekros in transgressions and sins[Eph. 2:1]. Lazarus, being physically dead, head Christ's voice and responded. The widow's only son, who was dead and being carried to his burial, heard Jesus' voice and responded. They were as dead as anything that had ever died, and yet they responded. Why? Christ enabled them. They had no limited physical ability to respond to mankind. They responded only after Christ enabled them to do so via the Spirit of God.

It is the exact same way with the spirit within man. God must enable that spirit to respond, because it was dead in transgressions and sins, and had no ability to respond until the work of God wrought upon their heart, their spirit.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Bro. Van, you like to talk about how unregenerate are able to understand the milk of the gospel. There is much to this that you are not taking into account. We both know the gospel flows from God. The milk of the gospel, no where does it come from? God, but let us take and use a natural example...provided by scripture...of where this gospel milk comes from.

“Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?” says the LORD. “Do I close up the womb when I bring to delivery?” says your God. Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice greatly with her, all you who mourn over her. For you will nurse and be satisfied at her comforting breasts; you will drink deeply and delight in her overflowing abundance. For this is what the LORD says: “I will extend peace to her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees. As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem.”[Isa. 66:7-13]

This is a picture of a mother and her suckling babe. This is also a picture of Christ and His bride, the church. When Zion(Christ's bride) and He, come together, they bring forth their children. Mother Jerusalem nurses her suckling babes and they alone. They are the ones who receive this sincere milk of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The devil's children will never suck on these breasts.

Now, take David's and Bathsheba's baby that died. Once it was dead, it did not have the ability, the faculty to suck upon her breasts and drink of her milk because he was dead. The unregenerate, spiritually, are in the same boat. They can not suck upon Mother Jerusalem's breasts until they are quickened, regenerated.

 

[Van]

do not see how that proves limited spiritual ability. No one is partially dead or partially alive. They are either dead or living. That is the way with our spirit. It is either nekros or it is not. There is no middle ground here, mon ami.

I am going to restate this one more time in the off chance you really do not grasp scripture. Your doctrine "defines" being spiritually dead with total spiritual inability, but that definition has no support in scripture. Matthew 13 teaches of four spiritually dead soils, three of which receive the gospel, thus being dead does not mean unable to understand and receive the gospel.

John 15:4-5 is clear. If you think God should have said no "good" fruit rather than no fruit, take it up with Him.

Folks reread Matthew 23:13 where spiritually dead men were actually in the process of "entering heaven." All these claims of inability to hear or understand are unbiblical.

Final point, Paul spoke to babes in Christ as MEN OF FLESH. Thus, men of flesh can receive spiritual milk. QED

 

[SovereignGrace]

in the off chance you really do not grasp scripture.

Non Monsieur,non, it is not moi who does not really grasp scripture. Can you show me any historical creeds or confessions that hold to your belief? Any 'Articles of Faith/Confessions of Faith' churches today that advocate this belief of yours? I'd venture to guess no ORB, UB, IFB, FWB, SBC, FBC, et al would hold to your view. I did work with a woman who was WoF and she advocated sinners didn't need drawn to come to Christ, which is full-blown Pelagianism.

Your doctrine "defines" being spiritually dead with total spiritual inability, but that definition has no support in scripture.

It's not my doctrine mon ami.

John 15:4-5 is clear. If you think God should have said no "good" fruit rather than no fruit, take it up with Him.

People are known by their fruits, Bro. Van. Bad trees produce bad fruit. Good trees produce good fruit. Sinners have bad fruit.

 

[Van]

Scripture says if we are not indwelt, we cannot produce fruit. You can deny this truth till the cows come home, but John 15:4-5 is there for all to read. The OP's Biblical Assertion is from a traditional source. No need to address strawman arguments, no one comes to Jesus unless drawn by the Father.

If you are not advocating "Total Spiritual Inability" then no it is not your doctrine. Otherwise it is.

In summary, being spiritually dead means being separated from God and unable to do anything to cause us to be transferred into the kingdom of the Son. Being Spiritually dead does not preclude seeking God and placing our trust in Christ. Matthew 13:1-23, Matthew 23:13, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The OP's Biblical Assertion is from a traditional source.

Van, it is clear that you have not understood the statement from the 1689 Confession, but have wrenched it from its context (ie. the rest of the chapter) and has forced your own reasoning on it.

Matthew 13:1-23, Matthew 23:13, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

Your failure to understand these Scriptures and your consequent faulty interpretation of them have been pointed out to you time and time again on previous threads. Do we really have to go through all this stuff again? Can't you just accept that you are actually not clever enough to work out a whole new system of theology all on your own?

 

[Van]

Hi Martin, your post #35, simply says I am mistaken. You can post "taint so" till the cows come home, it will not change scripture. The Biblical Assertion is not taken out of context, it says what it says, and anyone can read it. The rest of the Chapter does not conflict with it, that is your bag.

I understand Matthew 13:1-23 just fine, four types of people are presented, and three have limited spiritual ability. Matthew 23:13 has spiritually dead folks in the process of entering heaven, again demonstrating limited spiritual ability. 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches spiritually dead folks can hear and respond to spiritual milk. You can deny these, and many other verses. I just accept they mean what they say. It would take someone clever to say all three do not mean what they say.

 

[Rippon]

Hi Martin, your post #35, simply says I am mistaken.

That's a polite way of saying he tried his best to explain in detail, but you have been obstinate, if not obtuse.

1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches spiritually dead folks can hear and respond to spiritual milk. You can deny these, and many other verses. I just accept they mean what they say.

You have misplaced your thinking cap Van.
Verse 14: The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Now that kind of person is not a Christian whatsoever. It is as plain as the nose on your face. To argue against it indeed foolish.

But the next verse says :
The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments

Have you noted the contrast Van? Without the Spirit in verse 14, and with the Spirit in verse 15. In verse 15 Paul is speaking of a believer --a Christian.

Verse 16 is a follow-up on verse 15 pertaing to a believer --But we have the mind of Christ.

In chapter 3, verse 1-3 it starts off by saying : Brothers and sisters, now that is ovviously addressed to believers.

I don't have the time right now to develop this --but you do understand plain language --don't you?

It would take someone clever to say all three do not mean what they say.

I Cor. 2:14-3:3 is a total of six verses --not three. You are indeed arithmatically challenged. ;-)

 

[agedman]

Agedman, you can say you do not see them, but all that means is you are in denial.

I am not!

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When we are united with Christ we are made alive. You can claim you are unfamiliar with Ephesians 2:5, but I am sure interested readers are not so unfamiliar with Scripture. In Christ = alive; not in Christ = dead.

Next you attempt to rewrite Matthew 13, where Jesus speaks in parables to prevent understanding, thus teaching they had some spiritual ability. You side has nothing but nullification and denial.

Ok, look at Ephesians 2 (NIV):

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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In the posts of this thread, it is YOU who would place human ability as the catalyst of moving humans from death to life. That is not the presentation of the Scriptures that YOU attempted to use but do not support your thinking.

Then you struggle with Matthew 13 in attempting to make the three soils having some self determination.

There is hardly a farmer to be found that will not understand that the seed has the germ of life within itself, and that seed, even cast upon the stones, will when in the presence of moisture and light break out and of itself grow. However, because it is not found in prepared soil, it will wither and die.

There is no life in the soil, rather the prepared soil has what is necessary for life. It is prepared so that when life is given, that life may grow.

Because there are some who do not grasp that which is basic to farming, there is a distortion of the Matthew 13 which would present that life in some manner is already present in the ground. But it just isn't the truth. Of themselves, minerals, nutrients, light, water, .... has no life. Yet, when life is introduced it is supported by these basic elements.

That is also basic to the conflict of evolutionary thought in which humankind evolved from some phenomena involving the ocean. Life begets life, nothing else.

 

[Van]

Hi Agedman, why misrepresent me? We are not the "catalyst." God transfers us from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. But you must deal with Romans 5:2, where our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand.

Next I said the three soils that received the gospel had limited spiritual ability. Again, please address my position.

No one said there is life in the soil. That makes three misrepresentations.

Folks, total spiritual inability has once again been shown to have no support in scripture, but the Fallen have been shown to have limited spiritual ability (able to understand and respond to spiritual milk).

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."

 

[agedman]

Hi Agedman, why misrepresent me? We are not the "catalyst." God transfers us from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son. But you must deal with Romans 5:2, where our faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand.

Van, you cannot proof text Romans 5:2 to support that statement.

Look further in the same chapter:

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.​

There is no "faith providing access" statement anywhere found. What YOU desire to see in Romans 5:2 is not existent. Rather, it is BY faith one is justified and one is at peace and is introduced to the Grace of God. So, compare the statement of Romans 5:2 to Romans 5: 9 and 10. It is NOT OUR faith, but that which God provides because Christ's BLOOD brought justification, and reconciliation, and the grace of salvation.

Again, it is not the supposed faith of the believer, but that brought by God and implanted.

Next I said the three soils that received the gospel had limited spiritual ability. Again, please address my position.

I DID address THE position of what was correct. That YOUR position is wrong, does not oblige me to acknowledge the validity of that position - there is none to acknowledge.

SEED has life in itself. It is called the germ. Seed will grow of itself from the surrounding parts of the seed, without proper nutrients from any other source, for a short time, but dies from lack of outside nutrition. That is the condition of all soil EXCEPT that prepared earth.

At NO TIME is the dirt alive, prior to the seed planted. Rather the dirt is prepared. Each soil is prepared by the farmer for the desired use by the farmer. It is not up to the dirt or related dirt to make itself ready.

The is no "limited spiritual ability" in any ground but the prepared soil, and even then the ability only resides in that the soil is PREPARED for the seed, and that the seed may thrive as the farmer desires. Until the seed is planted in the prepared soil, it remains with no significant ability other than the acknowledgement by the farmer that it is prepared. The soil is not self aware that it is has any significance or determination of preparation and use.

No one said there is life in the soil. That makes three misrepresentations.

Sure you did, by considering the soils have "limited spiritual ability."

Folks, total spiritual inability has once again been shown to have no support in scripture, but the Fallen have been shown to have limited spiritual ability (able to understand and respond to spiritual milk).

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."

Two comments:
1) The quote above does NOT address "Spiritual Ability" but the "natural liberty and power of acting upon choice." You cannot manipulate the statement from the document to say what you desire it to say no matter how hard you have in this thread tried.
2) I have stated on more than one occasion that there are a few areas in which I disagree with the writers. It is on a thread opened for that discussion. There is no need for me to restate what is already on that thread for all to read. The "natural liberty" of the unregenerate allows choices from that which is unregenerate, that will decay, that will fail. That some of those choices may be "good" in the manner of better (such as one eating or not eating healthy) but ultimately, ALL DIE anyway. So, such "natural liberty" means very little, and most certainly does not connect in any manner to some supposed innate "spiritual ability" as you would desire.