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Featured The Crux of Keeping the Sabbath Day Contention

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hark, Feb 14, 2016.

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  1. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    The crux of keeping the sabbath day contention has to begin and end with Jesus Christ in Matthew 12:1-8 because Jesus is directly addressing the topic when the Pharisees were seeking to condemn His disciples for profaning the sabbath day.

    Now sabbath day keeper contenders have to answer these 6 questions.

    #1 How were the O.T. saints blameless for profaning the sabbath day?

    #2 What did Jesus mean "in this place is one greater than the temple."?

    #3 How are the disciples guiltless in the eyes of Jesus?

    Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

    #4 Could it be that Jesus is greater than the Temple?

    Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    #5 Could it be that the believer's body is the temple of the Holy Spirit now & forever?

    1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

    Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    #6 Could it be that Jesus Christ is in us by faith is why we are guiltless now & forever?

    2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    May the Lord help you to answer these six questions to find your rest in your contention.
     
    #1 Hark, Feb 14, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    The crux of the "~Keeping the Sabbath Contention~" is WHO IS THE SABBATH'S KEEPER : THE LORD YOUR GOD THE SON OF MAN, or, you, the sons of man,
     
    #2 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 15, 2016
  3. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Then explain why His disciples were not keeping the sabbath day.

    Explain why Jesus was defending His disciples by giving two references from the O.T. on how the saints had profaned the sabbath day but were blameless?

    So how are His disciples guiltless?
     
    #3 Hark, Feb 15, 2016
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  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    No, you must first explain why you allege "~his disciples were not keeping the sabbath day~";

    and you must first explain why you allege "~two references from the O.T. on how the saints had profaned the sabbath day but were blameless~" meant ~they~, broke / desecrated / transgressed / sinned against the Sabbath Commandment;

    and you must first explain how you have proved the disciples were not guiltless.
     
    #4 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 15, 2016
  5. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Read it for yourself; the Pharisees accused His disciples to Jesus.

    Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

    What were the Pharisees talking about in respect to the sabbath day?

    Exodus 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

    And so the disciples were gathering food to eat by plucking the ears of corn on the sabbath day, thus in the eyes of the Pharisees, His disciples were profaning the sabbath.

    That was explained in the last three questions of the six questions in the OP. Do feel free to read the OP again and in full. I even made it harder for you by removing the bold and underlining portion to the scripture so that Jesus will help point out His truth in His words on why YOU are guiltless, and it is because of Him being in YOU.
     
    #5 Hark, Feb 16, 2016
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    There _you_ have read it to yourself … “~the Pharisees accused His disciples to Jesus ~”


    But that’s how it goes, it takes a Pharisee to play judge, then to accuse falsely, then to contradict the True Judge’s judgment.
     
    #6 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 16, 2016
  7. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    But Jesus did not say that His disciples were not profaning the sabbath day.

    Instead, He told the Pharisees about two incidents in scripture where O.T. saints had profaned the sabbath but were blameless because they were in the temple.

    Then He said something in this place where He and the Pharisees were at, was greater than the Temple as to why His disciples were guiltless.

    So ask Jesus how His disciples were guiltless since they were not in the Temple profaning the sabbath that day?

    Is it because Jesus is there?

    And if Jesus Christ is in you... is that why you are guiltless for profaning the sabbath day?
     
    #7 Hark, Feb 16, 2016
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    . . . and there you have said it yourself, “~in the eyes of the Pharisees, His disciples were profaning the sabbath.~”

    And in Jesus’ eyes?

    Did He tell his disciples, You unruly rogues! Don’t steal the grain, you are braking the Law and in the end profane my Sabbath Day, thus misbehaving!

    Did Jesus judge his disciples? Did Jesus say to the Pharisees, Thank you Rabbis, I’ll tell my disciples not to profane my Sabbath Day. And thank you friends for caring about my interests?


    But man, after all I, GE, just am too naïve to understand what Exodus 16 has got to do with all this excitement? It wasn’t manna the disciples picked up? If it were manna, how come it fell on the fields on the Seventh Day of the week? No, I’m sure you haven’t thought of that.
     
    #8 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 16, 2016
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    If that’s the case what keep on bothering, Hark old chap? Are you now urging me to keep the Sabbath and not to do anything not lawful on the Sabbath but to be a guiltless saint? Let me inform you, Hark, I would be a lost case; so don’t dislocate your joints trying to save me from the coming judgment.
     
    #9 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 16, 2016
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Have Jesus' disciples now profaned his Sabbath Day in the corn fields, or in the temple? and where and how? because I still cannot see anything of it anywhere, in the corn fields, or, in the temple, of how they committed sin on the Lord's Day?!

    Because what would be transgression of the Law on the Sabbath but sin done on the Sabbath?
     
    #10 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 16, 2016
  11. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    How about paying attention to what Jesus did say for why His disciples were guiltless?

    It was an accusation because no one is supposed to gather anything on the sabbath day; not even sticks.

    Numbers 30:31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. 32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

    But His disciples were guiltless because Jesus was with them; just as you are guiltless for not keeping the sabbath because Jesus Christ is in you.
     
    #11 Hark, Feb 16, 2016
  12. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Sounds painful. Okay. I will not dislocate my joints to save you from the coming judgment. I leave the saving to Jesus Christ. Only He can save you.
     
    #12 Hark, Feb 16, 2016
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Not the priests or David were guiltless because "~Jesus was there~". They were guiltless because their actions on the Sabbath in the temple were not profanations of the Sabbath and were no transgressions of any Law but were God's Laws concerning the temple and the Sabbath, obeyed.

    With saying his "~disciples were guiltless~", you are saying they were guilty! Did Jesus teach you to think in that way? No, the Pharisees taught you that; you apply all their manners and arguments faithfully, not Jesus', and from their approach don't hesitate to find others who simply enjoyed the joys and benefits and privileges of the Lord Jesus' Sabbath Day ---and Jesus Himself---, guilty of Sabbath's profanation.

    I am an ape, I know; but I am an old ape, I also know. I smell a bobbejaanklapper from under the olifant dung.
     
    #13 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 16, 2016
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Thanks. That for a change, was very nice to hear from you ---no judgmental insinuations to the contrary. God bless you too
     
    #14 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 16, 2016
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Who did pay attention to that and who, here, did not?! Shucks!
     
    #15 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 16, 2016
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    No! Be realistic those days are looong gone. We don't roam the desert where the most important and fatiguing work year in year out was to gather fire wood, and stupidest and most defiant of works was to go out sunrise on Sabbath mornings to find manna for the day. Are you still living under those circumstances? Sounds like it . . .
     
    #16 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 16, 2016
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  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Now a days people are getting defiant and audacious in other respects.
     
    #17 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 16, 2016
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    This is not the crux of any Sabbath or Sabbath-Sunday debate. This was and still is the crux of the Divineness and Greatness of the Son of God Jesus Christ, namely, Who is the Greater, the Divine and Divine Lawgiver, the Son of Man Jesus of Nazareth, or, the Church and her divines? It is clear today as in those days the Temple is the greater for people.

    Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbath and greater than the temple, and that those with Him on the Sabbath were blameless and guiltless. But the Church said they were guilty and profaned the Sabbath. I'll have Jesus' version and accept his verdict.
     
    #18 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 16, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  19. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    I meant to say that the priests and David were blameless because they were in the Temple when they had profaned the sabbath.

    But I point out that Jesus said that they had profaned the sabbath in those two examples, but were blameless.

    Jesus had given two examples in the O.T. on how the saints had profaned the sabbath but were blameless and then went on to the present to explain how and why the disciples were guiltless for profaning the sabbath.

    It certainly wasn't because the disciples were in the Temple when they were in the field was why they were guiltless. It was because Jesus was with them is why they were guiltless.

    Jesus is Lord over the sabbath and so that is why the sabbath is not lord over Jesus.

    You are my brother in Christ. We just disagree on how we are justified in the eyes of God and that is by Jesus Christ in us for believing in Him.

    I can only hope that one day, you may understand why I believe that way, even if you still disagree.
     
    #19 Hark, Feb 17, 2016
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    To profane the Sabbath doesn't mean David and kie deliberately transgressed the Fourth Commandment. Otherwise our Great Judge certainly would not have declared they were blameless--viz., sinless, no transgressors.


    'Profane' received an additional meaning of "having or indicating contempt, irreverence or disrespect for a divinity or something sacred" Collins. That is NOT its meaning Jesus had in mind, I'm very sure.

    The meaning Jesus had in mind was simply that the priests as well as David “rendered service” to the common people so as to also profit by the Sabbath's blessing and sanctity which HE AS "LORD OF THE SABBATH, MADE the Sabbath" for, "for man"—his disciples. In New Testament terminology, David and the priests "ministered" unto the Church the "Nourishment" of "eating and drinking of Sabbaths' Feast of CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE" or Bread of Life "ministered of-Sabbaths” to the Body of Christ's Own the Church. Colossians 2.


    David “gave to them that were with him” of the few date expired showbread loaves. I think on that occasion the five or seven loaves were miraculously increased to nourish that whole group of hungry soldiers. Those loaves fulfilled a greater end than what they according to the rule of Law were supposed to serve. Jesus gives the Bread of Life. Pharisees want showbread burned after seven days; not revived in new loaves.

    David UNLIKE THE PRIESTS magnified the glory of God with his profane act of sharing supposedly holy bread with outcasts soldiers! And used the Sabbath to the same end and purpose, thereby magnifying God’s Rest Day.


    SO DID JESUS magnify the Sabbath Day HE, had made, HIMSELF.


    But Sunday theorists say Jesus transgressed, that is, countered and annulled the Sabbath He had made Himself FOR THE PURPOSE TO BENEFIT the outcasts of society! Unimaginable!


    Sundayists have lost the capacity to think positively because they have landed in the depression of tradition and can’t get out of it.
     
    #20 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Feb 17, 2016
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