Shotgun blast not allowed, pinpoint the passage where Christ sets foot on earth in Rev. please.
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Where do I Find Rapture in Revelation?
- Thread starter vooks
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Shotgun blast not allowed, pinpoint the passage where Christ sets foot on earth in Rev. please.
Hark
Well-Known Member
I don't know about Revelation but how about Zechariah 14:4 ? Surely this event is the Lord coming back to defeat Satan and the world's armies, right?
And yet the "first resurrection" happened after the defeat of Satan and the world's armies after He had touched down.
So who were the saints that came back with Him before the "first" resurrection since these saints coming out of the great tribulation are hardly meeting the Lord in the air.
It all points to a pre trib rapture to me.
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
vooks
Active Member
Hark
Well-Known Member
Both Paul and I are redeemed, but what we build on that foundation which was laid in Christ Jesus will be judged. 1 Corinthians 3:10-17
There are vessels unto honor in His House which are the firstfruits; the elect; which are the abiding bride of Christ as His disciples.
And then there are the vessels unto dishonor in His House which are they that be Christ's at His coming that are castaways as in left behind.
Believers living in sin, even former believers, can repent with His help in making themselves vessels unto honor in His House but only before the Bridegroom comes. 2 Timothy 2:18-21
The loss of crowns are not the only thing at stake for not running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to finish as our Good Shepherd in helping us to abide in Him and to follow Him as His disciple. Paul testified to that possibility for not bringing his body into subjection which is to become a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27
If Paul had sowed to the flesh, and had not repented before the Bridegroom had come, he would have become a castaway when God judges His House first which is at the pre trib rapture. 1 Peter 4:17-19
If you want me to post the scripture all the way out in the KJV, I'll be glad to do so. Do check them before you reply. They are relevant as to why the pre trib rapture has to come first, because that is when God will judge His House first. If you consider how the church will excommunicate unrepentant believers as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter, you may see that is the same way God will excommunicate too.
1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
That's pretty much symbolic of what will actually happen when God casts those not abiding in Him into the bed of the great tribulation.
Revelation 2: 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
So God will judge us in according to our works of what we have built on that foundation; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit ,which is why it is important to look unto the author & finisher of our faith to help us run that race in laying aside every weight & sin. Hebrews 12:1-2
The pre trib rapture is coming and this is why Jesus warned His disciples to be ready to go, because not every saved believer will be ready to go. Luke 12:40-49
vooks
Active Member
unnecessary glib
if you are living and redeemed and Paul is 1900 years dead and in heaven redeemed, what makes you fantasize that the redeemed John saw in heaven were raptured?
point is John seeing redeemed in heaven is no proof of pre-trib rapture in Revelation
where is rapture in Revelation? A single verse will do, not tons of irrelevancies
Hark
Well-Known Member
There are no handlers save the One at that throne of grace. I represent no denomenations and my view on the pre trib rapture is not of the norm, because not all saved believers will be raptured. I believe that the pre trib rapture is when God will judge His House first, separating the vessels unto honor from the vessels unto dishonor.
As for the rapture event in Revelation; it does seem that you are missing the forest for all the tree since the whole point of the book of Revelation from the beginning to the end was to prep believers to able to escape.
You can't have judgment of being cast into the bed of the great tribulation for the saints in one church at Thyatira for not repenting, unless not all the saints will be cast into the great tribulation; hence indirectly referring to the pre trib rapture.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
If that is not enough; here is another one; a promise to be kept from the hour of temptation which is to receive the mark of the beast or not in order to survive that shall try all upon the earth which is the great tribulation.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Now those are two references in Revelation in referring to the pre trib rapture without actually saying it plainer in a book of symbolism.
The book ends inviting all that hear to the churches and those that seek Jesus Christ to come to the Marriage Supper.
Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
vooks
Active Member
you are free to believe anything including the flying spaghetti just stop pretending it is scriptural because it is not.
I'm still waiting for rapture in Revelation and so far nothing is coming from you save aimless glib
FYI Israel was kept from all the Egyptian plagues while still in Egypt
Once again, here is the divine order in which mortality is clithed in immortality in the twinking of an eye: The dead in Christ rise first, the we who are alive are caught up in the air . Resurrection of the saints in Revelation is ONLY in Rev 20:4 and it is rightfully called FIRST because there was none before it save in a pre-trib theorist's. hallucinations
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Hark
Well-Known Member
Feel free to address the scripture by how I am applying it wrong.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Explain how a person can be kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth unless they are NOT on that earth to have that temptation?
You cannot say that is not what that means in how I am applying it.
There is no way you can apply that about going through the Egyptian plagues in Egypt to Revelation 3:10 if you are on earth to endure that hour of temptation. That would be like getting the plagues while in Egypt if you are on earth when that hour of temptation is trying every one, including you.
God be willing, I shall address your other points of contention in the next post to keep this one short and to this point of contention.
Hark
Well-Known Member
I have addressed this contention before; This is a reference to a pre trib rapture because the saints are meeting Jesus in the air.
You still have not address the problem of Jesus having set foot on the Mount of Olives with the saints to defeat Satan and the world's armies in Zechariah 14:1-5 ... please take note;..... they are not in the air any more.
And yet Revelation 20 th chapter has Satan and his armies defeated BEFORE the resurrection of the saints coming out of the great tribulation.
God be willing, I shall address the last point of contention you had posted earlier.
Hark
Well-Known Member
I had addressed this contention before also by His grace and by His help.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The word "first" is just deferring from the other resurrection of the dead which was to be taken place after the thousand years were finished. John was not meaning that this was the only resurrection, but that the resurrection of the saints coming out of the great tribulation will happen "first" BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected a thousand years later.
Look here.
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Do we treat the the Book of Revelation as a lie because of "first resurrection" deferring from the rest of the dead to be resurrected later after a thousand year reign when someone can say that clearly Acts 24:15 says that there is only one resurrection?
Or are we to say that Acts 24:15 is a lie because there are two resurrections as it supposed to happen at two different times in Revelation 20:5?
Or do we pay attention to detail of the word "both" as inferring different times in keeping up with scripture as a whole instead of just referring to two kinds of people?
So pay attention to detail by the way this verse was written.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
All that means is that this resurrection of the saints coming out of the great tribulation will happen first before the rest of the dead. It is not meaning that this is the only resurrection that had happened.
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vooks
Active Member
@Hark
You are fond of irrelevancies.
Acts 24:15 says EVERYONE, just and unjust will resurrect. Revelation 20 gives us the resurrection of the Just as preceding the unjust' by 1000 years. How would Revelation strike you as a lie in any way?
As a matter of fact, Holy Spirit feeds our curiosity by telling us when the unjust would resurrect because resurrection of the unjust is part of the full resurrection!
About the FIRST
I don't understand why otherwise mature and sober believers suspend their reasoning and cleave to silliness and illogical positions. You are saying there are multiple resurrections but the Reveltion 20's is the SECOND LAST and as such deserves the tag first? Are you in your right mind?
FIRST means FIRST not the FIRST of the LAST TWO.
vooks
Active Member
I'm looking at Zechariah 14:1-5. Which part says the Lord shall come with HIS resurrected saints?
Look at the diversity of 14:5.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Zechariah 14:5
Look also at the commentary on the same verse
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/zechariah/14-5.htm
You are the only one seeing resurrected saints in this verse for reasons known best to yourself
vooks
Active Member
God kept Israel through the Egyptian plagues while they were still in Egypt.
Your horrible insinuation that one can only be preserved from the trial by rapture is totally unfounded
Hark
Well-Known Member
I hope you are not just now coming off from replying to Gerhard from another thread when replying to me, because I know how the "debate" between you two brothers can be heated at times where you guys just can't stick to the topic without inferring some inability of the poster to comprehend or in my case, accusing me of having a fondness for irrelevancy.
This is why I say take time out to pray, but you seem offended by that suggestion. Maybe I should just say "take a break before replying to someone else after posting to Gerhard".
Remember patience and meekness in how we serve Him since it is on Him to cause the increase?
I was just giving an example on how someone can read that reference the wrong way. And someone did in another christian forum, but that is beside the point. The point is, one can take a verse to null and void other verses and thus throw everything out as only seeing contradiction whereas in your case, you are just disagreeing with how I read "first resurrection" and how all those other verses do not testify to the pre trib rapture at all.
I am not saying the "first resurrection" is a lie. I am saying that this was referenced after testifying when the other resurrection of the dead will happen, thus signifying the resurrection that will happen prior to the rest of the dead as the "first" resurrection as meaning it will happen before the other one.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
This is why I think you are talking to Gerhard in spirit and in emotion still.
There is a contrariness to your P.O.V. because Zechariah 14:1-5 & Revelation 20th chapter opposes your P.O.V.
Explain how Christ has set foot on Mount Olives with the raptured saints BEFORE he battles the world's armies in Zechariah 14:1-5 and yet the world's armies have been defeated and Satan is cast into the pit BEFORE the " first " resurrection in Revelation 20th chapter when Christ and the raptured saints were already on earth in according to Zechariah?
Just set aside your belief about what the "first resurrection" means and try to at least see how I am seeing this contrariness in those two references and mayhap you will see error and explain to me how I am reading those two references wrong.... if I am wrong.
Please answer that question in your next reply in continuing this discussion.
Hark
Well-Known Member
Okay then.
Are the raptured saints with the Lord when He comes to battle the world's armies?
I will even try to read your P.O.V. into the verses.
Zechariah 14: 1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
So when the Lord goes forth, He will do battle against those nations. To apply your P.O.V. , the Lord defeated the world's armies, then ascended again to catch up the saints in the air to line up with Revelation 20th chapter, but the first epistle to the Thessalonians had Christ descending with a shout; not ascending.
Below we see His feet touching on the Mount of Olives as this coming is with the raptured saints that will cause many to flee in this coming battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
So the saints are with the Lord when He comes to do battle.
But your first resurrection happened after the battle was over.
That to me is evidence of the pre trib rapture and why first resurrection was just meaning to defer from the rest of the dead that will be resurrected later on from the resurrection of those saints coming out of the great tribulation.
If you read what kind of saints are coming out of this resurrection, they all pertains to those that were under the mark of the beast system thus only pertaining to the saints that have gone through the great tribulation.
Revelation 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Thus these saints being resurrected out of the great tribulation are they that be Christ's at His coming while Christ the firstfruits are the pre trib raptured saints that were with Him when He comes to defeat Satan and the world's armies.
vooks
Active Member
How many battles do you find in Revelation?
Revelation 20:19-21 (KJV)
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV)
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
These two battles are separated by around 1000 years. And the first one happens BEFORE resurrection while the second one happens after resurrection of the saints
If Zechariah's battle entails resurrected saints, it MUST be the latter that happens AFTER resurrection.
Once again my brother @Hark,
Where is the much touted (pre-trib) rapture in Revelation?
If you were honest enough, the only reason you resist the first resurrection as what Holy Spirit calls FIRST and instead engage in theological circus acts is simple; resurrection at Rev 20 happens post-trib which smashes your pet theory to smithereens. Please take off your pre-trib scales and let Holy Spirit speak to you.
I have had to discard a lot of religious nonsense and garbage I gallantly defended because I found it inconsistent with the Sword of the Word.
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The premise of your question is in error which appears to be that if it is not in Revelation then it does not exist. If so then you need to reconsider this. Revelation has not claim of being entirely exhaustive on everything. Nor should we assume that it is.
What we do see is that in Revelation chapter 4, which is during the tribulation period, there are Saints who are elders who are seated in the throne room wearing white and having crowns (stephanos) on their heads which are crowns given as rewards. This indicates that Saints are there and have already stood at the bema seat hence the church has been taken up in a rapture as given in I thess.
vooks
Active Member
You are busy misreading me to bother reading what I say.
According to 1 Corinthians 15 and Thessalonians, resurrection precedes rapture, and at both of these we will be clothed with immortality. This is rapture.
Revelation has no mention of rapture but it mentions resurrection of the saints in chapter 20 right after the Beast and his army are demolished and he is cast into the lake of fire. Since there is no other resurrection of saints before this, and since this resurrection is called the FIRST resurrection, I conclude that this event is what Paul talks about in 1 Cor 15, which happens moments before rapture.
So rapture in Revelation is found in Revelation 20.
If you have a clue about where else it is found, please share the same.
Your argument that saints in heaven points to rapture is hollow. For the thief went with Christ to paradise, and Paul tells me to be absent from the body is to be with Christ. So the saints are in heaven even as of now yet rapture has not yet happened (or you and I have missed it!
Well I gave you a civil response. What you posted here is anything but. I will leave you to your misery.
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