Where do I Find Rapture in Revelation?

[Darrell C]

While I also believe there will be Judgment at this time, I do not see any Biblical Basis or justification that negates that in the Rapture both the living and dead of the Church are glorified and caught up to Heaven. There is no "fire" associated with the Rapture for the Church. There are, even as John the Baptist taught, two possibilities for men: they are Baptized with the Holy Spirit or they are baptized with fire (Matthew 3).

After the rapture of the abiding bride of Christ, and after the first angel shares the everlasting gospel, then I believe is when that fire comes which is the cause of the fall of Babylon in Revelation 18th chapter.

This is not a refining fire, but one of judgment. It is not imposed on the Church, though there are believers in the Tribulation who suffer as the wrath of God is poured out.

While the damnation of those judged at the Sheep and Goat Judgment is in fact eternal, again we can see an application that applies to both the End of the Tribulation as well as the Great White Throne Judgement.

Becoming a vessel unto dishonor in His House is a damnation in one respect.

Damnation is damnation. One is either saved or lost. There is no "damnation" in an eternal perspective for any born again believer in Christ.

They can never be a vessel unto honor once that door to the Marriage Supper is shut.

They can: the Tribulation Martyrs, formerly unbelievers, are granted the privilege of reigning with Christ during the Kingdom. This is not said of the Body who is raptured.

I will develop John the Baptist's teaching in regards to the gathering of the Saints later. Out of time.

While I can see an application to the Rapture, this is primarily, in my view, a reference to the collection of the saints after His Ascension.

Despite being part of the Rapture or not, we are gathered to Christ when we die.

I have to reject that view, primarily because the Rapture is all inclusive of everyone in the Church when it takes place, both living and dead.

Hey thanks for the response, and sorry for the rushed response. Hopefully it can be narrowed down and developed in greater detail.

God bless.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing.

I think the primary view of those professing believers left behind is that they were never saved, but I say they were denied for being in iniquity ( Titus 1;16 & 2 Timothy 2:12 & Matthew 7:23 ), but He still abides in them for He is faithful ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) even if they did fall away from the faith; 1 Timothy 4:1-2 because He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:39 )

That is the key: professing. "Lord, Lord, have we not...?"

No, the Lord states...they did not. These are commanded to depart from Him for He never knew them. Meaning they are not members of the Church and cannot be considered members.

We do not consider unbelievers as those who fall away from the faith in a salvific context. When one is born again that salvation is eternal, because we are indwelt by Him Who is Eternal. That is what Adam lost and the state all men are born into. And it is understanding that Reconciliation began under New Covenant standards at Pentecost that helps us to understand the magnitude of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

but alas, not every believer will be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes as even the cares of this life can be a snare.

I would agree, however, that does not exclude them from being raptured. Among the dead that are raised at the Rapture, how many could we suppose were not "ready" when they died? I would suggest...most of them. Yet all among the dead in Christ are resurrected and caught up without distinction according to Paul. Why would we think this would be different from among those who remain (still alive)? Does the fact that many believers reject outright that there will be a Rapture mean...they won't be caught up?

The only requirement for being raptured is being born again, which is the same requirement, according to Christ...to enter into the Millennial Kingdom.

Just think about that, and see if it doesn't make sense.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This can be seen to have application as a warning to believe before it is too late and one finds them in the Tribulation.

We, as believers...will not be caught unawares:


1 Thessalonians 5

King James Version (KJV)

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Most will center their thoughts that no man knows the day and the hour, yet forget that the very reason Christ taught about the Tribulation was that we might be able to recognize the signs of that period.

We cannot state when it will happen, but, we have been given enough to recognize the signs of the times, and only believers will be able to understand what is happening when it occurs. That day will not come upon as a thief, this is the fate of unbelievers. Happily there will be those who come to a saving knowledge of Christ in the Tribulation, and God will allow some to die, and some He will preserve. But not one of those will be born again believers from the Church Age.

Again, thanks for the response.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

You think that members of the Church are separated in the Rapture and some of them are thrown into a furnace of fire?

The fire in view is eternal punishment, not a purgatorial placement during the Kingdom..

Peter warns that there is a fire coming on the world.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jesus hinted at it coming after the pre trib rapture.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

So while we live in this life, it is the cares of this life that will be a snare, and this is why the escape was mentioned when the heaven and earth shall pass away.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So we are to be ready because Jesus is sending a literal fire on the earth.

Luke 12: 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.... 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.....49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Maybe it will be a brief solar flare that will burn up one third of the earth as described in Revelation when Babylon falls, setting the stage for the new world order and the mark of the beast system to buy and sell in order to survive. I get that impression from reading Revelation 14:6-11 where the three angels are setting up the hour of temptation that will try all upon the earth as everyone will know the gospel, everyone will know about the calamity of USA, the daughter of Babylon, as in "We the people.." in mirroring people at the tower of Babel in making a name for themselves; and everybody will know the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire.

No one will be able to claim ignorance during the great tribulation, because of these 3 angels, but the calamity of Babylon happened inbetween the first and third angel.

And so it does look like it will be pretty quick when that fire comes which will be the catalyst for the coming great tribulation which officially starts when the order goes out to build that Third Temple for the new peace accord since USA is not around any more as an ally.

Anyway, just sharing why I see that furnace of fire may be referring to the sun since it would be just as plain to refer to hellfire if that was what Jesus was really referring to.

 

[Hark]

It is not the world in which the Lord prepares a place for us, but in Heaven itself. In the Eternal State this place, New Jerusalem, bridges, so to speak, Heaven itself and the New heavens and Earth. But this does not take place until the Millennial Kingdom ends.

During the Millennial Kingdom, it is my belief that the Church will dwell in that City. Those that are still in this world will dwell on this earth, howbeit renovated and having the curse dramatically lifted (long life, cessation of enmity between man and animals and animals and animals).

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I believe New Jerusalem will be there on earth so that generations coming out of the milleniel reign may have access to the tree of life.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The elect in that city will be testifying to the glory of God in that city that God has built for the coming generations that visits the city.

Psalm 48:1 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness. 2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King. 3 God is known in her palaces for a refuge.....10 According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness. 11 Let mount Zion rejoice, let the daughters of Judah be glad, because of thy judgments. 12 Walk about Zion, and go round about her: tell the towers thereof. 13 Mark ye well her bulwarks, consider her palaces; that ye may tell it to the generation following.

 

[Darrell C]

Peter warns that there is a fire coming on the world.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

And again we see that the context is one of judgment, which is eternal. Both Peter and Jude speak about eternal judgment, and the parallel is well worth taking a look at. These passages actually help us to understand the eternality of the punishment coming for unbelievers. It helps to dispel the erroneous notion of Annihilation.

Jesus hinted at it coming after the pre trib rapture.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

So while we live in this life, it is the cares of this life that will be a snare, and this is why the escape was mentioned when the heaven and earth shall pass away.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The first quote definitely distinguishes a post-Tribulation context, which can also be seen in Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 19, all three speaking about the Supper of the Great God, at which time the enemies of God are physically destroyed and their carcasses becoming carrion fodder.

Consider:


Luke 17:34-37

King James Version (KJV)

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


This takes place at His Return, and in view is physical death. It has application, I believe, to both the death that takes place during, as well as after the Tribulation as the Kingdom is established.

Consider also:

Ezekiel 39

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.


He goes on to speak of what comes next, which defines it as referring to the Kingdom...


9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.


In view is the cleanup of the carcasses, which we could not place in a context of the Eternal State, but rather just after the Tribulation and part of the Millennial Kingdom.

Revelation refers to this as well:


Revelation 19:17-21

King James Version (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Now we look back at Luke 17 and understand that those who are taken are taken in judgment, meaning they die physically. The parallel passage in Matthew 24 does not give as much detail as Luke does.

The Sheep and Goat Judgment will result in the destruction of the unbelieving, and as as Christ taught in John 3...only those who have been born again will see the Kingdom of Heaven. No unbelievers will enter therein, and those that do are those that physically survive the Tribulation. And it is from these that the population that joins with Satan in Revelation 20 descend from.


Continued...

 

[Hark]

I view the Marriage Supper as that very period (Millennial Reign) and the celebration continues throughout the thousand years. And it is the Church which enters into that.

I view the Marriage Supper as happening in Heaven during the seven year great tribulation that the earth is having on earth.

Someone shared that a Jewish marriage consist of the bridegroom going away after having married his bride to prepare a place for his bride, and when he comes to receive her, the honeymoon lasts seven weeks where they are alone for that whole time in getting to know one another on a personal level.

I am not sure if this is true or not, but it is quite symbolic of the Marriage Supper as a receiving of the bride by the Bridegroom to the place prepared in having their seven year honeymoon.

It is over after the great tribulation when they come back, following Christ the King of kings.

Those that come to saving faith during the Tribulation will either live or die. Those that die are resurrected (Revelation 20:4-5) and those that survive are those who are the Sheep, who enter into the Kingdom (Millennial).

Having the bio chip to buy and sell is the only consequence for those judged to the lake of fire. Is it possible for an unbeliever that did not take the mark to still be around? I don't know. I just know that somehow, the devil will be able to lure the coming generation out of the milleniel reign of Christ to rebel one last time, and so I think there may be some unbelievers that were allowed to remain because they did not have the mark of the beast... even though they have heard the gospel. I think they will be the devil's agents that will help the devil turn so many away from Him for that last rebellion, but again.. mere speculation.

I do not know for sure. I reckon we will know for sure when the time comes... or when we are blessed enough to be face to face with Him in Heaven at the pre trib rapture, we will probably know everything then.

The Goats are unbelievers, not members of the Church:

Yes. I stand corrected somewhat in regards to that reference. I see that now. This may very well pertains to the end judgment; the White Throne Judgment. It would explain how bad that small season will be when Satan is released from the pit. So Matthew 25:41-46 may pertains to how people will be judged out of that last rebellion of that small season.

Matthew 25:41-46

King James Version (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


There is simply no way to make these members of the Church, nor this a Rapture event. There is no Rapture at the end of the Tribulation...it takes place prior to the Tribulation.

I place the event of Matthew 25:41-46 as happening after that small season when Satan is defeated for the last time. The Great White Throne Judgment would be at that time.

If you consult Daniel you will find something very interesting:

Daniel 12:7-12

King James Version (KJV)

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


As Chapter 9 speaks of Antichrist basically ceasing Temple Service in the middle of the Week (Seven Year Period), even so here as well as in Matthew 24 we see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of. Here, we see three and a half years spoken of in relation to the Abomination which makes desolate, yet we see an additional time given from that event, which is a period of 75 days. Consider that at the end of the Tribulation Satan is bound for one thousand years, yet is released for a short season. That 75 days, I believe, is the period in which the Sheep and Goat Judgment falls into, at which time the nations are gathered for judgment. What this means is that Satan gets 75 days at the end of the Millennial Kingdom to bring the unbelievers produced by the Sheep that enter into the Kingdom (their offspring). See Zechariah 13:1-3 for an example of an unbeliever in the Kingdom.

Continued...

That small season lasting only 75 days. Thanks for sharing that bit of info. It does seem to come across that way as you had explained it.

 

[Darrell C]

So we are to be ready because Jesus is sending a literal fire on the earth.

Luke 12: 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.... 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.....49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Maybe it will be a brief solar flare that will burn up one third of the earth as described in Revelation when Babylon falls, setting the stage for the new world order and the mark of the beast system to buy and sell in order to survive. I get that impression from reading Revelation 14:6-11 where the three angels are setting up the hour of temptation that will try all upon the earth as everyone will know the gospel,

Notice that their portion is appointed with unbelievers?

That is because they are unbelievers.

As far as fire goes, we have to place each mention in it's context. In the Tribulation there will be astronomical events including events involving the sun. But that doesn't mean we neglect to place fire such as mentioned by Christ, John the Baptist, and Peter, all in their separte contexts. John the Baptist was not speaking of fire derived from an event with the sun, but spoke of eternal fire which is contrasted with those, when it became a possibiltiy, who would be Baptized with the Spirit.

And I broke this section up because you say "everyone will know the Gospel" when the truth is that this is not the case:



2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Often one objection to the Pre-Trib Rapture is a mocking of "a secret Rapture," which is an erroneous misconception or perhaps simply bad Rapture teaching someone has heard. The truth is that the world population will be oblivious to the truth of the Rapture because they will be given strong delusion. The "Lie," I believe, includes whatever garbage Antichrist and other believers present to explain the Rapture. Personally I do not think the world would notice when a group like this disappears, both because it is common for many people to die every day, as well as the fact that they will be under this delusion from God.

everyone will know about the calamity of USA, the daughter of Babylon, as in "We the people.."

I'm not really fatalistic about the U.S. because the fact is there are still a lot of good people in this country. While our government, and media stars, can be seen to be corrupt and about as far from God as one can get, that doesn't mean everyone is like that.

America still has the advantage of...her people. Just because we only see her warts and wrinkles in the media doesn't mean there are not still people out there seeking to do the will of God.

in mirroring people at the tower of Babel in making a name for themselves; and everybody will know the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire.

The Lake of Fire is for all who reject the revelation God has provided. This includes all Ages of Biblical History. For example, we know the Law did not produce justification in an eternal sense, though in a temporal sense men were justified. In this Age the Revelation is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is this Gospel that those in 1 Thessalonians 1 and 2 reject. They know not God and obey not the Gospel.

But not sure what that has to do with America in particular. Sin and unbelief is a worldwide problem, and no country stands apart as an example of Christian obedience. There will be no Christian Nation until the Millennial Kingdom, and in the Sheep and Goat Judgment all nations are gathered and judged. Those that believe will enter into the Kingdom (that is, those born again during the Tribulation), and unbelievers will be destroyed.

No one will be able to claim ignorance during the great tribulation, because of these 3 angels, but the calamity of Babylon happened inbetween the first and third angel.

I view this as parenthetical, primarily because we know that Christ's Return takes place at the end of the Tribulation, after all judgments are unleashed. It summarizes events, and gives a picture of the outcome of the Tribulation.

And so it does look like it will be pretty quick when that fire comes which will be the catalyst for the coming great tribulation which officially starts when the order goes out to build that Third Temple for the new peace accord since USA is not around any more as an ally.

We are told what happens in regards to literal fire during the Tribulation, when heat scorches the earth and torments her inhabitants. Again, we distinguish this from the fire which is used in a context of eternal punishment, as opposed to temporal.

Matthew 3 is an example, and it is a familiar metaphor in Christ's teaching. Here is an example:


John 15

King James Version (KJV)

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


I present this passage in order to ask you to consider whether the disciples were able to abode in Christ at the time of this teaching. Peter is the best example, because in just a few short hours Peter will take up a sword to keep Christ from the Cross, then...deny that he even knew Christ.

I wouldn't exactly call that abiding.

In view is a foretelling of the coming Age, and the Lord is speaking to them as Israel. He is not telling them to remain Christians, because they are not at this point born again Christians trusting in Christ's death. Peter's actions confirm that.

In view is a command, warning, exhortation...not to forsake Him. If you ask yourself what the vine is that is not the "True Vine," which Christ states He is, I wonder what you you would say it is. Let me know.

Anyway, just sharing why I see that furnace of fire may be referring to the sun since it would be just as plain to refer to hellfire if that was what Jesus was really referring to.

The entire Tribulation will be a furnace, basically, but we see that believers will both be preserved as well as die in that period. All believers in the Tribulation begin as unbelievers, and among those that are saved will be those who die, and those who survive. Not all will be "refined" by fire, such as the remnant preserved by God in the Wilderness.

So I am not completely following this line of thought, though I get the gist of it, lol.

Thanks for the response.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

I would agree Scripture is clear that rewards will vary and that believers can lose reward through sin, and that is is important that we live our lives in obedience. However, there is only one reason why people participate in the Rapture, that is because they are saved and actually members of the Church. Again, Paul is pretty clear that everyone in the Church, both living and dead...will be resurrected and caught up.

Then why did Paul warned that he could become a castaway if he did not bring his body under subjection ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ) in running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help him lay aside every weight & sin ( Hebrews 12;1-2 )?

And again, we can see that the Sheep and Goat judgment is not a division among believers, but a division of believers from unbelievers. And the unbelievers are sent into eternal punishment.

Yes, I see Matthew 25:41-46 as pertaining to the event BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgment happens when the dead are judged since the devil and his angels were just cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

But that does not change what I see is God having to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4;17 ) by way of excommunicating those not abiding in Him from attending the Marriage Supper as we can trust Him to keep their souls while they suffer the fire and subsequent great tribulation. 1 Peter 4;18-19

God bless.

May God bless you, brother. The Lord has used you to amend my application of Matthew 25:41-46 and I do give Him thanks for that.

 

[Hark]

Notice that their portion is appointed with unbelievers?

That is because they are unbelievers.

Not really. After cutting them off, they were still considered His servants as there were two kinds that were receiving receiving stripes to a varying degree. Luke 12:46-49

Here is a prophesy from Psalm 89 regarding the New Covenant wherein those not abiding in Him, were to be visited with stripes.

Psalm 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

So I see Hebrews 12:1-29 as touching on that event when the Father chasten and scourge every child He receives as there will be a cutting off as in becoming a castaways.

I think it would be best not to see Matthew 25:41-46 as symbolically representing all kinds of separations that the Lord God will do as if it always refers to unbelievers.

 

[Darrell C]

I view the Marriage Supper as happening in Heaven during the seven year great tribulation that the earth is having on earth.

Consider the Parable of the Ten Virgins. I view this as referring to Christ having returned to Heaven, and this is where the door is shut on those who are not prepared. Again, I view Christ's teachings as being for the most part exclusive to Israel, and that His earthly Ministry was as that Messiah awaited by Israel. His Ministry to the World began on the Cross, where He began His Ministry as Great High Priest. So the relationship of the Virgins to Christ is that of Israel, rather than the world in general.

Long story short, I view the Marriage Supper as descriptive of the eternal relationship of God and believers. I see application to the Tribulation period, but also view the entire Millennial Kingdom as being included. This is spoken of in Revelation 19:7-9 (I love ref-tagger!) and is in a context of Christ's Return. This would suggest that the primary beginning is then.

Someone shared that a Jewish marriage consist of the bridegroom going away after having married his bride to prepare a place for his bride, and when he comes to receive her, the honeymoon lasts seven weeks where they are alone for that whole time in getting to know one another on a personal level.

I am not sure if this is true or not, but it is quite symbolic of the Marriage Supper as a receiving of the bride by the Bridegroom to the place prepared in having their seven year honeymoon.

It is over after the great tribulation when they come back, following Christ the King of kings.

Kind of hard to equate seven weeks with the seven years that the Tribulation lasts, thus rendering this an unlikely parallel.

Something else to consider is the erroneous notion that the Church of this Age is somehow distinguished from all believers in the One Fold found in the Eternal State. This would suggest a dichotomy among the redeemed and I do not see Scripture as teaching that, though I do distinguish between the Church and Old Testament Saints, who were no a part of the Church (thought they have been redeemed). Something to toss out would be, in the Rapture, we are told that the dead in Christ rise first. Now the question I pose would be, do we expect Old Testament Saints to be raised at this time?

I speculate that perhaps they may be raised physically, which seeing men will live long lives I see no reason for, say, Abraham to be raised and then live physically throughout the Millennial Kingdom, but, I lean towards them not being glorified at that time. I lean heavily towards their glorification taking place after the Millennial Kingdom.

Having the bio chip to buy and sell is the only consequence for those judged to the lake of fire. Is it possible for an unbeliever that did not take the mark to still be around? I don't know.

Something to consider is that the possibility that technology will break down during the Tribulation is very real. I take a simple approach and consider the mark to be something simple, such as a tattoo.

As far as unbelievers entering the Kingdom, I see that as an impossibility based on John 3. When Christ spoke to Nicodemus, people forget to place this into a context which would be understandable to Nicodemus. What Kingdom would he have had in mind? The answer is the Kingdom promised in Old Testament Prophecy. On this side of Pentecost we understand that Kingdom better, having the benefit of New Testament teaching, but Nicodemus had only that revelation supplied in the Old Testament.

And Christ makes it clear:

John 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


It may sound a little simplistic but I see this as the Lord stating that only those born again would enter the Kingdom. Again, what kingdom would Nicodemus have had in mind, rather than a 21st century believer?

I just know that somehow, the devil will be able to lure the coming generation out of the milleniel reign of Christ to rebel one last time, and so I think there may be some unbelievers that were allowed to remain because they did not have the mark of the beast... even though they have heard the gospel. I think they will be the devil's agents that will help the devil turn so many away from Him for that last rebellion, but again.. mere speculation.

We cannot blame the unbelief of those that rebel within the Millennial Kingdom on Satan, as he is bound at this time. He simply organizes their rebellion.

See Zechariah 13 again to see how false prophets will seek to hide their true views.

I do not know for sure. I reckon we will know for sure when the time comes... or when we are blessed enough to be face to face with Him in Heaven at the pre trib rapture, we will probably know everything then.

I think this will be the case. Now, we know in part, but, then, we will have attained to the redemption of the Body and be with Christ. I think we will understand in full then.

Yes. I stand corrected somewhat in regards to that reference. I see that now. This may very well pertains to the end judgment; the White Throne Judgment. It would explain how bad that small season will be when Satan is released from the pit. So Matthew 25:41-46 may pertains to how people will be judged out of that last rebellion of that small season.

This passage, as I said before, can be seen to have application to both, in my view. But the primary context is during the establishment of the Kingdom. The Great White Throne takes place a thousand years later. The reference to everlasting punishment, even though these unbelievers go to Hades/Sheol, still remains the case. Their punishment begins at that time in the eternal perspective and there is no end to it.

I place the event of Matthew 25:41-46 as happening after that small season when Satan is defeated for the last time. The Great White Throne Judgment would be at that time.

Note again that the context is at the Return of Christ, when the Nations are gathered for judgment.

That small season lasting only 75 days. Thanks for sharing that bit of info. It does seem to come across that way as you had explained it.

Prophecy is consistent in both Old and New Testaments. It's just a matter of placing them in a balanced context which takes all relevant Scripture into consideration.

And just as Ezekiel prophesies of that day, even so does John.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Again, Paul teaches that everyone in the Body is raptured, both dead and alive. Not one will be left behind. We are not raptured due to meritorious service, but because we are believers. There is no passage that teaches believers are left behind.

Iniquity is the reason why saved believers would be left behind. Matthew 7:23 for one is such an example.

Many believers think this Matthew 7:23 is referring to professing believers that were never saved, but not so, when Jesus was referring to false prophets coming into the church ( Matthew 7:15 ).

Any work of iniquity is a work that denies Him; Titus 1:16

Anyone denying Him, will be denied by Him; 2 Timothy 2:12

Even if they do not believe in Him any more, He still abides; 2 Timothy 2:13

So believers that go astray or engage in dead works that deny Him, will be denied by Him for being workers of iniquity; but He still abides in them and so they are still saved. So what does this denying brings about? It denies them from attending the Marriage Supper held in His honor.

In the first quote notice that though judged all are still saved. Paul does not distinguish that some, or most are delivered from the wrath to come, but speaks generally of all.

I agree with Paul that, even those left behind.. even if a believer that no longer believes, he is still saved, but they will be denied attendance to the Marriage Supper for not looking to Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd for help in discerning iniquity and in departing from iniquity.

If God led Paul to teach a church to excommunicate an unrepentant brother, then God will do the same at the pre trib rapture.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

The whole point of Revelation is for the churches to get ready before the Bridegroom comes, because five out of seven churches were not ready.

 

[Darrell C]

Then why did Paul warned that he could become a castaway if he did not bring his body under subjection ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ) in running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help him lay aside every weight & sin ( Hebrews 12;1-2 )?

It is possible for believers to fall into a state of what could be called "spiritual amnesia," bringing their temporal condition to a state where they are, temporally speaking, castaways. But we do not equate that with the eternal. As mentioned before, God is consistent in how He has dealt with mankind, and from the beginning the wages of sin has been death.

Even for born again believers.

But that death has always been physical, as spiritual death is as far out of our reach (this is within God's purview, not man's) as spiritual life is.

Think about sacrifice for sins under Old Testament conditions: what atoned for the sin was a physical death. God in His mercy refrained from exacting payment for sin on an eternal basis until Christ offered up Himself. Ran across a thread yesterday where it was debated concerning payment for sin, which seems fairly simple...when Christ died physically on the Cross He said "It is finished."

So as I said before, while a Christian can sin to the point where God exacts physical death, this does not change the fact that when we are saved we receive eternal life through being reunited with God Himself. When we are Baptized with the Spirit, that is, immersed in God, that is an event that does not change.

Yes, I see Matthew 25:41-46 as pertaining to the event BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgment happens when the dead are judged since the devil and his angels were just cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

But that does not change what I see is God having to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4;17 ) by way of excommunicating those not abiding in Him from attending the Marriage Supper as we can trust Him to keep their souls while they suffer the fire and subsequent great tribulation. 1 Peter 4;18-19

Excommunication is more a temporal matter. The leadership of a local Body can excommunicate one from the fellowship, but they cannot actually cast someone out of the Church Body. Again, this falls within the purview of God, Who not only does not excommunicate people from the Body, but has promised on many occasions that He would not.

But removing someone from the physical...that is another story.

Think of those that died physically in the Old Testament. Can we say of all those that eternal separation resulted? Samson died due to his sin. Something to think about, perhaps sin was why Paul died. Perhaps agreeing to offer up sacrifice led to his captivity and eventual death (Acts 21:23-26).

May God bless you, brother. The Lord has used you to amend my application of Matthew 25:41-46 and I do give Him thanks for that.

That's what we come here for, right?

I view forum discussion as one of the greatest means of learning available to us. It is good for us to be challenged in our doctrine, as it forces us into the Word to support our views.

God bless.

 

[Hark]

Consider the Parable of the Ten Virgins. I view this as referring to Christ having returned to Heaven, and this is where the door is shut on those who are not prepared. Again, I view Christ's teachings as being for the most part exclusive to Israel, and that His earthly Ministry was as that Messiah awaited by Israel. His Ministry to the World began on the Cross, where He began His Ministry as Great High Priest. So the relationship of the Virgins to Christ is that of Israel, rather than the world in general.

Long story short, I view the Marriage Supper as descriptive of the eternal relationship of God and believers. I see application to the Tribulation period, but also view the entire Millennial Kingdom as being included. This is spoken of in Revelation 19:7-9 (I love ref-tagger!) and is in a context of Christ's Return. This would suggest that the primary beginning is then.

I see the parable of the ten virgins where five were foolish as going out to the market place seeking to be filled with oil as representing those wayward believers today seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit again, even after a sign of tongues which comes with no interpretation.

When those five that were ready are filled with oil and shining when the Bridegroom comes, because they are not out chasing after the Holy Spirit to receive after a sign. Hence the warning of Matthew 12:39 and why Paul warned believers not to believe that they can receive Jesus or the Spirit again in being that chaste virgin bride of Christ, 2 Corinthians 11:1-4

This is why many are falling away from the faith in these movements of the "Spirit" as they chase after seducing spirits after a sign 1 Timothy 4:1-2 as they do so in hypocrisy when Jesus Christ is already in them 2 Corinthians 13:5

They profess to know God but in works they deny Him: Titus 1:16

That is why those foolish virgins are left behind; 2 Timothy 2:12 & Matthew 7:23 But He still abides 2 Timothy 2:13 for He will lose none ( John 6:39 ) as they will be received later after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

So believers and even former believers are called to depart from iniquity to avoid being received as a vessels unto dishonor in His House; 2 Timothy 2:18-21

 

[Hark]

It is possible for believers to fall into a state of what could be called "spiritual amnesia," bringing their temporal condition to a state where they are, temporally speaking, castaways. But we do not equate that with the eternal. As mentioned before, God is consistent in how He has dealt with mankind, and from the beginning the wages of sin has been death.

Even for born again believers.

Were not the saints at the church at Thyatira warned to depart from this iniquity or be cast into the bed of the great tribulation where her children will be killed with death as proof that God judges in this way?

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So that is how I see what separates the vessel unto honor from the vessels unto dishonor in His House as the vessel unto dishonor are those that did not look to Him for help in discerning iniquity and for departing from that iniquity as the wages of sin is physical death.

That's what we come here for, right?

I view forum discussion as one of the greatest means of learning available to us. It is good for us to be challenged in our doctrine, as it forces us into the Word to support our views.

It's the only way we can grow in Him in a time where faith is hard to find in these latter days.

God bless.

May God bless you too.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
Notice that their portion is appointed with unbelievers?

That is because they are unbelievers.

Not really. After cutting them off, they were still considered His servants as there were two kinds that were receiving receiving stripes to a varying degree. Luke 12:46-49

Again, this is a context which is under Law, rather than under the New Covenant. In view are His servants, but those servants belong to Israel.

Not the Church.

Now to who in the Church does this apply to...


Luke 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


...?

In view remains the potential for eternal separation, and this teaching is given to the disciples. So again I suggest the understanding lies in placing this in the context of Christ's Ministry to Israel. The Church does not have Pharisees literally.

Since we are here consider this next passage:


8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.


A couple things to consider would be this contains a prophetic nature, because the Lord speaks of the future. The Holy Ghost is not yet teaching them what they shall say, for the Comforter has not yet come. Another would be we know that Peter did not...confess Christ before men, but the opposite, he denied he even knew Christ.

So it is a little difficult to get across what I mean by this being in a context which pertains primarily to Israel, but if you consider this in your studies it will present itself.

Consider Christ's statement:



Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Matthew 15:23-25

King James Version (KJV)

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Christ was not denying the Ministry He would perform in regards to Redemption, however, the Gospel of the Kingdom was exclusive to Israel.


Continued...

Here is a prophesy from Psalm 89 regarding the New Covenant wherein those not abiding in Him, were to be visited with stripes.

Psalm 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Could you tell me how you have concluded this has a context of the New Covenant?

I find nothing in this entire Psalm that would suggest that, but that this speaks of the Covenant of Law.

So I see Hebrews 12:1-29 as touching on that event when the Father chasten and scourge every child He receives as there will be a cutting off as in becoming a castaways.

There is quite a difference between chastening and cutting off.

Only sons are chastened.

Unbelievers are punished. And there is no Scripture that promotes a view that the sons of God receive eternal separation.

I think it would be best not to see Matthew 25:41-46 as symbolically representing all kinds of separations that the Lord God will do as if it always refers to unbelievers.

Not sure what that means, lol.

If we separate the eternal from the temporal, we understand that every passage dealing with eternal separation deals only with unbelievers. Believers are not, and cannot be in danger of eternal separation, it would nullify quite a few passages in Scripture and effectively negate Scripture. All passages used to teach loss of salvation are used out of context, and it is our job to place those passages into their proper context. Good examples are Hebrews 6:1-6, 10:26, and 2 Peter Chapter 2.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Iniquity is the reason why saved believers would be left behind. Matthew 7:23 for one is such an example.

Matthew 7:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Hard to make someone Christ never knew a believer.

This has an eternal context, the result is eternal separation.

Many believers think this Matthew 7:23 is referring to professing believers that were never saved, but not so, when Jesus was referring to false prophets coming into the church ( Matthew 7:15 ).

Matthew 7:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Seems pretty clear their profession is false. They outwardly seem to be sheep...but are not.

Any work of iniquity is a work that denies Him; Titus 1:16

Titus 1:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Again, unbelievers are in view.

Anyone denying Him, will be denied by Him; 2 Timothy 2:12

2 Timothy 2:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


Deny us what? Reigning with Him?

Even if they do not believe in Him any more, He still abides; 2 Timothy 2:13

2 Timothy 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.


There is nothing to suggest believers becoming unbelieving, but rather a general statement of truth: if one believes not it does not change the character of God.

The context is one dealing with persecution, which reveals whether faith is genuine or not. Those who deny Him due to persecution show their faith is not genuine.

So believers that go astray or engage in dead works that deny Him, will be denied by Him for being workers of iniquity; but He still abides in them and so they are still saved. So what does this denying brings about? It denies them from attending the Marriage Supper held in His honor.

The Marriage Supper is nowhere in any of these passages, lol.

The context is specific to persecution, and it deals with the genuine nature of faith. When one is persecuted and denies Him, God does not deny them entrance to the Marriage Supper, He denies them as His.

I agree with Paul that, even those left behind.. even if a believer that no longer believes, he is still saved, but they will be denied attendance to the Marriage Supper for not looking to Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd for help in discerning iniquity and in departing from iniquity.

Paul never speaks of believers being left behind in the Rapture. Again, both living and dead are glorified and caught up without distinction.

If God led Paul to teach a church to excommunicate an unrepentant brother, then God will do the same at the pre trib rapture.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

The whole point of Revelation is for the churches to get ready before the Bridegroom comes, because five out of seven churches were not ready.

All of the Churches are called to overcome, which is euphemistic for being saved.

And Christ states this:

Revelation 3

King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Those that are blotted out of the Book of Life are unbelievers. Those that overcome are eternally in union with GOd, and need not fear eternal separation.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I see the parable of the ten virgins where five were foolish as going out to the market place seeking to be filled with oil as representing those wayward believers today seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit again, even after a sign of tongues which comes with no interpretation.

It's a pretty simple parable which speaks of those who are prepared and those who are not.

The foolish were not in their places when they should have been.

And Charismatics would put the opposite rendering to this, lol, they would point to the wise as having the Spirit, where the foolish were those who deny the gifts.

Neither Charismatics nor any other denomination is in view, though, these virgins are Jewish.

When those five that were ready are filled with oil and shining when the Bridegroom comes, because they are not out chasing after the Holy Spirit to receive after a sign.

Just want to point out that the wise did not shine. While some see this as pertaining to having the Spirit, I think that reads into the text more than we ought to. If the foolish had, at some point, the Spirit of God, then Christ could not say to them...


Matthew 25

King James Version (KJV)

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


Christ makes it clear...


John 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.


There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that Christ denies knowing someone who has been saved. The foolish virgins are unbelievers.

We cannot insert a 21st century understanding (Charismatics lacking the Spirit, et cetera) into the text. It is Jewish and deals with Jews.

Hence the warning of Matthew 12:39 and why Paul warned believers not to believe that they can receive Jesus or the Spirit again in being that chaste virgin bride of Christ, 2 Corinthians 11:1-4

The virgins did not seek a sign, but oil for their lamps. The lesson is that they were unprepared. The arrival of the Bridegroom was simply not something that prompted them to preparedness, and with the Lord stating He did not know them it makes it pretty clear that these are not believers.

In regards to the second quote:


2 Corinthians 11:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


In view is not the Spirit, but a spirit.

This is why many are falling away from the faith in these movements of the "Spirit" as they chase after seducing spirits after a sign 1 Timothy 4:1-2 as they do so in hypocrisy when Jesus Christ is already in them 2 Corinthians 13:5

They profess to know God but in works they deny Him: Titus 1:16

I agree that Charismatics can get carried away, however, understand that Charismatics are no different than any other group of professing Christians. I have met Charismatics more conservative than others we might think were conservative. Those who center their worship and faith on the spectacular are either immature believers, or they are not believers at all. We also consider that when one grows up being taught these particular doctrinal positions they can be indoctrinated into them, and it is the job of those who understand Scripture to try to help them.

That is why those foolish virgins are left behind; 2 Timothy 2:12 & Matthew 7:23 But He still abides 2 Timothy 2:13 for He will lose none ( John 6:39 ) as they will be received later after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

There is nothing in Scripture which speaks about anyone being received "later." Could you supply a passage that suggests that?

So believers and even former believers are called to depart from iniquity to avoid being received as a vessels unto dishonor in His House; 2 Timothy 2:18-21

There are only two positions for men, either they are believers or they are not. Our salvation is not dependent on departing from iniquity, because if you remember...Christ saved us while we were yet sinners. From the eternal perspective salvation is just that, eternal. That doesn't negate physical death and sickness for sinning believers, but, we would have to find Scripture that speaks of the Spirit departing from believers. You can find that under the Economy of the Law, but not under the New Covenant. There is no reversion of the New Birth, which is why eternal salvation is called eternal.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Again, this is a context which is under Law, rather than under the New Covenant. In view are His servants, but those servants belong to Israel.

Not the Church.

Jesus said this: Luke 12:40

The Peter asked if this was for His disciples or for everybody: Luke 12:41

It was for His disciples as this addresses His servants; and the consequence is being cut off and partakers with unbelievers when that fire comes on the earth that burns up one third of the earth.

Now to who in the Church does this apply to...


Luke 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


...?

In view remains the potential for eternal separation, and this teaching is given to the disciples. So again I suggest the understanding lies in placing this in the context of Christ's Ministry to Israel. The Church does not have Pharisees literally.

Since we are here consider this next passage:


8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.


A couple things to consider would be this contains a prophetic nature, because the Lord speaks of the future. The Holy Ghost is not yet teaching them what they shall say, for the Comforter has not yet come. Another would be we know that Peter did not...confess Christ before men, but the opposite, he denied he even knew Christ.

So it is a little difficult to get across what I mean by this being in a context which pertains primarily to Israel, but if you consider this in your studies it will present itself.

Consider Christ's statement:



Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Matthew 15:23-25

King James Version (KJV)

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Christ was not denying the Ministry He would perform in regards to Redemption, however, the Gospel of the Kingdom was exclusive to Israel.


Continued...

The above scriptural references doesn't pertain to what Jesus was saying in Luke 12:40-49 because He was addressing His flock starting in Luke 12:32 which is why Peter had asked if all that He had said from 32 to 40 was for His disciples now or for everybody.

I'd say it was for His disciples since unbelievers which includes nonbelievers in Israel, are not serving Him as His servants to be cut off and place with unbelievers to receive stripes.

Could you tell me how you have concluded this has a context of the New Covenant?

I find nothing in this entire Psalm that would suggest that, but that this speaks of the Covenant of Law.

We have hidden prophesies about Jesus in the Psalms and so this is about Him as He is the seed in the New Covenant that shall endure forever as that promise of His faithfulness can only be applied to the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant which has vanished away now.

Psalm 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

There is quite a difference between chastening and cutting off.

Only sons are chastened.

Unbelievers are punished. And there is no Scripture that promotes a view that the sons of God receive eternal separation.

It is not an eternal separation when He still abides in them, but saved believers will be punished if they do not look to Him for help to depart from iniquity.

Look at the requirement for discipleship which is to bear fruit and the consequence for not abiding in Him and His words. You cannot be cast forth as a branch unless you were a part of the vine and thus saved.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Not sure what that means, lol.

If we separate the eternal from the temporal, we understand that every passage dealing with eternal separation deals only with unbelievers. Believers are not, and cannot be in danger of eternal separation, it would nullify quite a few passages in Scripture and effectively negate Scripture. All passages used to teach loss of salvation are used out of context, and it is our job to place those passages into their proper context. Good examples are Hebrews 6:1-6, 10:26, and 2 Peter Chapter 2.

God bless.

The parable of the prodigal son has him giving up his first inheritance for wild living. That means his first inheritance is gone. He can never have it back again. But he will return and find that he is still son.

There are two kinds of inheritance in the kingdom of heaven; the celestial and the terrestrial. The salvation that comes with eternal glory is the celestial one where the elect like the angels that never die and thus are the vessels unto honor in His House. They will live in New Jerusalem, and they will not be marrying nor given in marriage.

The vessels of dishonor are those that did not depart from iniquity, including former believers, and are left behind as castaways for not abiding in Him. It is a terrestrial inheritance where they will not have the power of the second death over them, but that is saying something about the first death. They could still die a physical death. They will marry and have children to lead by examples like bishops are supposed to do, while reigning with the King of kings. They will need to eat from the tree of life in Jerusalem until Jesus do away with sin, death, and hell altogether.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead......

If one considers what makes a vessel unto dishonor in His House, then it has to be the glory of a terrestrial inheritance.

.....It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Compare to...

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Thus the call to depart from iniquity is to make oneself by His grace and by His help, a vessel unto honor to be received by the Bridegroom.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity....21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That is why not abiding in Him as His disciples runs the risk of becoming a castaway only to be received later on as a vessel unto dishonor in His House. That is why they need God to wipe away the tears from their eyes over the loss of their first inheritance as there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth just as Esau wept over the loss of his birthright.

 

[Darrell C]

Were not the saints at the church at Thyatira warned to depart from this iniquity or be cast into the bed of the great tribulation where her children will be killed with death as proof that God judges in this way?

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So that is how I see what separates the vessel unto honor from the vessels unto dishonor in His House as the vessel unto dishonor are those that did not look to Him for help in discerning iniquity and for departing from that iniquity as the wages of sin is physical death.

The Church was not in danger of being cast into this bed and Tribulation:

Revelation 2

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


Again, all seven churches are called to overcome, which is, again, euphemistic for salvation. Those in the church who were seduced by Jezebel reveal false profession of faith, hence they are called to be saved.

John tells us how we overcome:



1 John 5:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Overcoming is a matter of belief, and that belief results in the New Birth, being born of God.

The Epistles to the Seven Churches all demand overcoming, and just as the wise Pastor or Preacher presents his message with an eye to the lost in the congregation, even so Christ exhorts these churches to overcoming.

It's the only way we can grow in Him in a time where faith is hard to find in these latter days.

Not sure why you would find it hard to find faith in these days, or think these days differ from the first century. Salvation is clearly defined as resulting in the few, whereas the many will take that broad path to destruction. I would suggest that conditions are relatively similar to the first century today, though perhaps we have more professing believers these days who make it clear their faith is not genuine.

And false doctrine is key in this, I believe, as well as poor teaching and lack of exhorting believers to study. An emphasis on actually understanding the Word of God is something that all of us should take a part in trying to remedy. The average Christian never reads their Bible, much less study it. While I think not all believers are gifted in areas of the Word, I also believe all believers are commanded to study and not be ignorant of the Word.

And again, that is the great thing about forums: most who come here want to learn and discuss the Word. I was like a kid in a candy shop when I found them. Use to be I had to go looking for people to speak to, here they are lined up and ready to discuss and debate, lol.

And I am running out of time again. You are keeping me busy, my friend.


God bless.

May God bless you too.

 

[Hark]

2 Timothy 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

There is nothing to suggest believers becoming unbelieving, but rather a general statement of truth: if one believes not it does not change the character of God.

It can't be about the unbeliever, because He still abides, and so it is about the believers that stop believing in Him and why He still abides.

2 Timothy 2:18 testifies to how some erred from the truth and had their faith overthrown by saying tat the resurrection was past already. Believers have also stopped believing because of the lie of the evolution theory.

But He still abides in them.

All of the Churches are called to overcome, which is euphemistic for being saved.

And Christ states this:

Revelation 3

King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Those that are blotted out of the Book of Life are unbelievers. Those that overcome are eternally in union with GOd, and need not fear eternal separation.

God bless.

Actually, the Greek word that "not" was translated from in Revelation 3:5 was about His promise to never do that to any believer's name written in the Book of Life and...

All those verses at the end of each church that was address, was about Jesus having to overcome it for the believer that did not depart from iniquity. So that promise in Revelation 3:5 was to assure those left behind that He would never blot out their names from the Book of Life because of this promise in John 6:39.

That topic about the Overcomer being Jesus would take far more to explain that P.O.V. but in general, that is the gist of it that this is what Jesus will do for those left behind when He overcomes for them as He is the faithful Good Shepherd that will finish what He has started in them which is to His glory as Savior..

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
Again, this is a context which is under Law, rather than under the New Covenant. In view are His servants, but those servants belong to Israel.

Not the Church.

Jesus said this: Luke 12:40

The Peter asked if this was for His disciples or for everybody: Luke 12:41

It was for His disciples as this addresses His servants; and the consequence is being cut off and partakers with unbelievers when that fire comes on the earth that burns up one third of the earth.

We still consider the audience...who was not the Church, but Israel. The teaching is of course for everyone, because it is God's intention of making it known to all men that they are in need of salvation. But this does not have a context in which the Church is in view.

Now to who in the Church does this apply to...


Luke 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


...?

In view remains the potential for eternal separation, and this teaching is given to the disciples. So again I suggest the understanding lies in placing this in the context of Christ's Ministry to Israel. The Church does not have Pharisees literally.

Since we are here consider this next passage:


8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.


A couple things to consider would be this contains a prophetic nature, because the Lord speaks of the future. The Holy Ghost is not yet teaching them what they shall say, for the Comforter has not yet come. Another would be we know that Peter did not...confess Christ before men, but the opposite, he denied he even knew Christ.

So it is a little difficult to get across what I mean by this being in a context which pertains primarily to Israel, but if you consider this in your studies it will present itself.

Consider Christ's statement:



Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Matthew 15:23-25

King James Version (KJV)

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Christ was not denying the Ministry He would perform in regards to Redemption, however, the Gospel of the Kingdom was exclusive to Israel.


Continued...
Click to expand...

The above scriptural references doesn't pertain to what Jesus was saying in Luke 12:40-49 because He was addressing His flock starting in Luke 12:32 which is why Peter had asked if all that He had said from 32 to 40 was for His disciples now or for everybody.

Again I ask...who in the Church do the quotes pertain to? Who in the Church should fear destruction in Hell?

As far as whether the earlier part of the Chapter pertains to the point we are discussing, they do. The context remains consistent as this is all one teaching that is related.

Again, you are making this group of Jews (and possibly Gentiles)...the Church. There was no Church before Pentecost.


Continued...