Where do I Find Rapture in Revelation?

[Darrell C]

I'd say it was for His disciples since unbelievers which includes nonbelievers in Israel, are not serving Him as His servants to be cut off and place with unbelievers to receive stripes.

It is for His disciples but the context is pre-New Covenant. It is not until the New Covenant is established and the disciples are Baptized with the Spirit of God that they become the Church.

Consider:

John 16:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Could you tell me how you have concluded this has a context of the New Covenant?

I find nothing in this entire Psalm that would suggest that, but that this speaks of the Covenant of Law.

We have hidden prophesies about Jesus in the Psalms and so this is about Him as He is the seed in the New Covenant that shall endure forever as that promise of His faithfulness can only be applied to the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant which has vanished away now.

Psalm 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

This...

Psalm 89:30-34

King James Version (KJV)

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.


..is referring to the Covenant of Law, which is the Covenant in force at the time of this writing.

And God did not break this Covenant, Israel did, hence the very need for the promise of the New Covenant:



Hebrews 8:7-8

King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


The fact remains that the New Covenant remained a promise until it was established, which was not until the Cross and Pentecost took place.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

There is quite a difference between chastening and cutting off.

Only sons are chastened.

Unbelievers are punished. And there is no Scripture that promotes a view that the sons of God receive eternal separation.
It is not an eternal separation when He still abides in them, but saved believers will be punished if they do not look to Him for help to depart from iniquity.

Look at the requirement for discipleship which is to bear fruit and the consequence for not abiding in Him and His words. You cannot be cast forth as a branch unless you were a part of the vine and thus saved.

That is incorrect.

First, we see branches cast out who were of Israel here:


Romans 11:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Secondly, when we consider the True Vine of John 15, we have to ask...what is the Vine that is contrasted with the True Vine (Christ)?

The answer is Israel:


Psalm 80:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.


What Christ is teaching to the disciples is strictly Jewish. What He is teaching is "Up until now you have viewed Israel as the source of provision, but I...am the True Source."

Israel was distinct in that they were the Covenant People of God, and they relied in that. Christ is telling them not to rely in that any longer, but to look to Him as the means of relationship with God.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

When this is used to teach loss of salvation it ignores the true context.

Did the disciples abide in Him?

Consider:


John 16:28-32

King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


In view is an abiding in Christ. The branches cut off are those of Israel in both passages, showing non-members of the Church described as branches, because they were in relationship with God through the Covenant of Law.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Not sure what that means, lol.

If we separate the eternal from the temporal, we understand that every passage dealing with eternal separation deals only with unbelievers. Believers are not, and cannot be in danger of eternal separation, it would nullify quite a few passages in Scripture and effectively negate Scripture. All passages used to teach loss of salvation are used out of context, and it is our job to place those passages into their proper context. Good examples are Hebrews 6:1-6, 10:26, and 2 Peter Chapter 2.

God bless.

The parable of the prodigal son has him giving up his first inheritance for wild living.

The Prodigal Son did not get a "second inheritance."

And keep in mind that the Prodigal Son was not a member of the Church.

That means his first inheritance is gone. He can never have it back again. But he will return and find that he is still son.

And that is the most glorious lesson: despite his sin he remained a son, The same is true for the born again believer.

There are two kinds of inheritance in the kingdom of heaven; the celestial and the terrestrial.

No, there are not two inheritances.

The salvation that comes with eternal glory is the celestial one where the elect like the angels that never die and thus are the vessels unto honor in His House. They will live in New Jerusalem, and they will not be marrying nor given in marriage.

There is no "celestial salvation" taught in Scripture. In the Eternal State, as well as in Heaven right now, there are only one type of redeemed, all redeemed by the Blood (Death) of Christ. While rewards vary, we are saved the same way, and receive the same salvation.

The vessels of dishonor are those that did not depart from iniquity, including former believers, and are left behind as castaways for not abiding in Him.

There is no such thing as "former believers." either one believes or they do not.

It is a terrestrial inheritance where they will not have the power of the second death over them, but that is saying something about the first death. They could still die a physical death. They will marry and have children to lead by examples like bishops are supposed to do, while reigning with the King of kings. They will need to eat from the tree of life in Jerusalem until Jesus do away with sin, death, and hell altogether.

The second death has no power over any believer. The second death is the second separation which is eternal. No believer need fear that.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead......

The celestial bodies are distinguished from flesh. In view, I believe anyway, Paul is referring to the sun, moon and stars. He defines v.40 with v.41.

We could also see this as a reference to the distinction between bodies in Heaven itself and those here in this universe.

The point in the quoted Scripture here is that there are different bodies, each distinct from the other. The primary topic is the resurrection from the dead, and the distinction between the body we now have and the body we will have.

If one considers what makes a vessel unto dishonor in His House, then it has to be the glory of a terrestrial inheritance.

.....It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This refers to the fact that we are "sown," born, into fallen flesh. That fallen flesh will be raised in incorruption, glory, and power. The basic point is between the natural body and the glorified body, which Paul makes clear here:


1 Corinthians 15:51-54

King James Version (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

There is a reiteration of what he said earlier.

Compare to...

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Thus the call to depart from iniquity is to make oneself by His grace and by His help, a vessel unto honor to be received by the Bridegroom.

Our works do not determine the body in which we will be raised in, for all of us will be raised in glorified form just as Christ was.

Again, the vessel of honor contrasted with the vessel of dishonor has a temporal context, speaking of our place in the Body now. And while we know there is a distinction among saints in the Eternal State, that does not change the context of this passage.

Consider:


2 Timothy 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.


When does one purge themselves of those things? Here? Or in Heaven?

And if he does purge himself, then he shall be a vessel unto honor. The context is temporal.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity....21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That is why not abiding in Him as His disciples runs the risk of becoming a castaway only to be received later on as a vessel unto dishonor in His House. That is why they need God to wipe away the tears from their eyes over the loss of their first inheritance as there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth just as Esau wept over the loss of his birthright.

"Not abiding" refers to rejecting the truth. You will need to provide Scripture that speaks of a "castaway being received later," and then show how this pertains to eschatological events.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

It can't be about the unbeliever, because He still abides, and so it is about the believers that stop believing in Him and why He still abides.

Look at it again:


2 Timothy 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.


It simply states that despite the unbelief of those in view, He remains faithful. The Lord does not react with faithlessness in response to the faithless.

2 Timothy 2:18 testifies to how some erred from the truth and had their faith overthrown by saying tat the resurrection was past already. Believers have also stopped believing because of the lie of the evolution theory.

But He still abides in them.

It doesn't say abide in, but abides faithful. He does not deny Himself. Nothing about abiding in believers here.

Actually, the Greek word that "not" was translated from in Revelation 3:5 was about His promise to never do that to any believer's name written in the Book of Life and...

That is correct, it basically states : "I will never blot them out of the Book of Life."

Now the big question: when are men written into the Book of Life?

All those verses at the end of each church that was address, was about Jesus having to overcome it for the believer that did not depart from iniquity.

Not one of the epistles speak of Christ overcoming for the believer, but we see a command for them to overcome. Again, this is commanding belief, basically commanding them to be saved.

Consider:

Revelation 2

King James Version (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


In other words, "He who is saved I will give to eat of the Tree of Life."

So that promise in Revelation 3:5 was to assure those left behind that He would never blot out their names from the Book of Life because of this promise in John 6:39.

I still have seen nothing Scriptural that suggests any believer is left behind at any time. The Lord did not know the foolish virgins, we cannot say they are believers.

The only believers left behind are those found in Luke 17, who are not taken in judgment but left to enter into the Kingdom.

That topic about the Overcomer being Jesus would take far more to explain that P.O.V.

But we can see clearly in Revelation that is is the individual overcoming, not the Lord. Truly Christ is the Overcomer...


John 16:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


...but, that is not in view in the Epistles to the Seven Churches.

but in general, that is the gist of it that this is what Jesus will do for those left behind

Could you present the Scripture that teaches this?

when He overcomes for them as He is the faithful Good Shepherd that will finish what He has started in them which is to His glory as Savior..

Christ's "overcoming" is a done deal. Finished. Complete. The overcoming necessary now is the responsibility of each individual. Look at the issues involved in the Epistles. It speaks of corruption in the Church, and a falling from a former position. That does negate the salvation of those truly saved, but it warns those in the Churches who are in danger because they are not saved. Leaving their first love, false doctrine allowed into the church, allowing false teachers into the church, being "dead," disinterest, self interest, self sufficiency...

Again, the issues are approached the same way most preachers address a congregation, taking into account that in that congregation are those who profess Christ but are not saved. If I write a letter to my own Church, I would not assume everyone was saved, and if I chose to address certain issues it would not mean those issues applied to everyone in the church. Couldn't really do that with my current church, but one I went to some years back had some serious discipline issues. So I left that church when they refused to address them.

Okay, have I caught up yet? lol


God bless.

 

[Hark]

We still consider the audience...who was not the Church, but Israel. The teaching is of course for everyone, because it is God's intention of making it known to all men that they are in need of salvation. But this does not have a context in which the Church is in view.

Again I ask...who in the Church do the quotes pertain to? Who in the Church should fear destruction in Hell?

As far as whether the earlier part of the Chapter pertains to the point we are discussing, they do. The context remains consistent as this is all one teaching that is related.

Again, you are making this group of Jews (and possibly Gentiles)...the Church. There was no Church before Pentecost.

Continued...

If it was so obvious that this was addressing Israel as in everybody, then why did Peter had asked this question? Luke 12:41

So you may want to reread that again.

 

[Hark]

The Prodigal Son did not get a "second inheritance."

And keep in mind that the Prodigal Son was not a member of the Church.

The prodigal son cannot be son unless he had the Holy Spirit in him. He cannot have the father as the Father unless he is a son to Him. The symbolism is there as I see it.

And that is the most glorious lesson: despite his sin he remained a son, The same is true for the born again believer.

Therefore applicable to the church. It is just as applicable that he can give up his first inheritance for wild living in the same manner that Esau gave up his birthright for a meal.

No, there are not two inheritances.

Explain why any one needs to eat from the tree of life if by faith in Jesus Christ we have eternal life? If they see the King of kings reigning, it cannot be for them to be saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

There is no "celestial salvation" taught in Scripture. In the Eternal State, as well as in Heaven right now, there are only one type of redeemed, all redeemed by the Blood (Death) of Christ. While rewards vary, we are saved the same way, and receive the same salvation.

There is no such thing as "former believers." either one believes or they do not.

I reckon we will find out soon enough.

The second death has no power over any believer. The second death is the second separation which is eternal. No believer need fear that.

If the elect has everlasting like as they are liken unto angels that can never die, then there is definitely no reason to even mention the second death, but there is because those coming our of the great tribulation can die a physical death.. the first death.. for which there is necessity to give assurances that they will not die the second death.

The celestial bodies are distinguished from flesh. In view, I believe anyway, Paul is referring to the sun, moon and stars. He defines v.40 with v.41.

We could also see this as a reference to the distinction between bodies in Heaven itself and those here in this universe.

The point in the quoted Scripture here is that there are different bodies, each distinct from the other. The primary topic is the resurrection from the dead, and the distinction between the body we now have and the body we will have.

This refers to the fact that we are "sown," born, into fallen flesh. That fallen flesh will be raised in incorruption, glory, and power. The basic point is between the natural body and the glorified body, which Paul makes clear here:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54

King James Version (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

There is a reiteration of what he said earlier.

Explain how there can be vessels unto dishonor in His House; of wood and earth?

Our works do not determine the body in which we will be raised in, for all of us will be raised in glorified form just as Christ was.

It is not works if we apply our faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd in helping us run that race by laying aside every weight and sin.

Again, the vessel of honor contrasted with the vessel of dishonor has a temporal context, speaking of our place in the Body now. And while we know there is a distinction among saints in the Eternal State, that does not change the context of this passage.

Consider:


2 Timothy 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.


When does one purge themselves of those things? Here? Or in Heaven?

And if he does purge himself, then he shall be a vessel unto honor. The context is temporal.

Yes, the context is temporal for when he is supposed to depart from iniquity and that is down here before the Bridegroom comes as no one in iniquity is allowed to attend the Marriage Supper.

That is what differentiates a vessel unto honor from the vessels unto dishonor. You are not going to have a dishonorable guest that has not been respecting you to attend your supper.

"Not abiding" refers to rejecting the truth. You will need to provide Scripture that speaks of a "castaway being received later," and then show how this pertains to eschatological events.

God bless.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Left behind, I see the purpose for that is to the destruction of their flesh as Satan will wage a war on the saints going through the great tribulation which are to be received later on.

 

[Hark]

Look at it again:


2 Timothy 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.


It simply states that despite the unbelief of those in view, He remains faithful. The Lord does not react with faithlessness in response to the faithless.




It doesn't say abide in, but abides faithful. He does not deny Himself. Nothing about abiding in believers here.




That is correct, it basically states : "I will never blot them out of the Book of Life."

Now the big question: when are men written into the Book of Life?




Not one of the epistles speak of Christ overcoming for the believer, but we see a command for them to overcome. Again, this is commanding belief, basically commanding them to be saved.

Consider:

Revelation 2

King James Version (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


In other words, "He who is saved I will give to eat of the Tree of Life."




I still have seen nothing Scriptural that suggests any believer is left behind at any time. The Lord did not know the foolish virgins, we cannot say they are believers.

The only believers left behind are those found in Luke 17, who are not taken in judgment but left to enter into the Kingdom.




But we can see clearly in Revelation that is is the individual overcoming, not the Lord. Truly Christ is the Overcomer...


John 16:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


...but, that is not in view in the Epistles to the Seven Churches.




Could you present the Scripture that teaches this?




Christ's "overcoming" is a done deal. Finished. Complete. The overcoming necessary now is the responsibility of each individual. Look at the issues involved in the Epistles. It speaks of corruption in the Church, and a falling from a former position. That does negate the salvation of those truly saved, but it warns those in the Churches who are in danger because they are not saved. Leaving their first love, false doctrine allowed into the church, allowing false teachers into the church, being "dead," disinterest, self interest, self sufficiency...

Again, the issues are approached the same way most preachers address a congregation, taking into account that in that congregation are those who profess Christ but are not saved. If I write a letter to my own Church, I would not assume everyone was saved, and if I chose to address certain issues it would not mean those issues applied to everyone in the church. Couldn't really do that with my current church, but one I went to some years back had some serious discipline issues. So I left that church when they refused to address them.

Okay, have I caught up yet? lol


God bless.

Well, we agree to disagree. I see what you are saying, but I don't think you are seeing what I am saying or how I am seeing it as to why God will judge His House first.

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

This warning would fall flat if you say it can never happen to a saved believer.

If you have a brother living in sin, by His grace and by His help, you best warn him to repent looking to Jesus for help, because he is at risk of being left behind when the Bridegroom comes. That brother is going to lose more than just the rewards of crowns, because he will be a castaway.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[Darrell C]

If it was so obvious that this was addressing Israel as in everybody, then why did Peter had asked this question? Luke 12:41

So you may want to reread that again.

Peter asks if this teaching is meant just for them.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Peter asks if this teaching is meant just for them.

God bless.

And Jesus had given an answer that applies only to those that are His servants that are at risk of stripes as separated from unbelievers, but joining them for not being ready.

May God bless you too, brother.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

The Prodigal Son did not get a "second inheritance."

And keep in mind that the Prodigal Son was not a member of the Church.

The prodigal son cannot be son unless he had the Holy Spirit in him. He cannot have the father as the Father unless he is a son to Him. The symbolism is there as I see it.

But the Father is not in view...the father of the Prodigal Son is. He is a man, not God.

And it is hard to find this fellow having the Spirit when He had not yet come. The eternal indwelling of the Spirit of God in association with Reconciliation did not begin until Pentecost. This is why men did not go to Heaven under Old Testament Economies, but to Sheol/Hades.

Consider:

John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


While the Spirit would depart from men in the Old Testament (i.e., King Saul), that is not the case concerning New Testament indwelling. If you have a New Testament Passage that suggests that the inwelling is not eternal, please present it.


Ephesians 1:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

And that is the most glorious lesson: despite his sin he remained a son, The same is true for the born again believer.

Therefore applicable to the church. It is just as applicable that he can give up his first inheritance for wild living in the same manner that Esau gave up his birthright for a meal.

But there was no Church yet.

Before the New Covenant was established, men came into relationship with God through the Covenant of Law.

And we do not equate a temporal inheritance bestowed by a man with the eternal inheritance bestowed by God.

No, there are not two inheritances.

Explain why any one needs to eat from the tree of life if by faith in Jesus Christ we have eternal life? If they see the King of kings reigning, it cannot be for them to be saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

First, I would ask are you questioning that the eternal life that Christ taught He would bestow is not not really eternal life?

Secondly, We distinguish salvation as being a completed action, rather than something we would interject into a context of the Eternal State.

Lastly, we read the purpose of the Tree of Life in the Eternal State...


Revelation 22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Are you suggesting that one will need to eat of the fruit and partake of the leaves (tea, maybe? lol) in order for eternal life to be sustained? This would call into question salvation in Christ altogether.

While I don't profess to understand this altogether, I think it safe to say that eternal life results from our union with God, nothing external. This Tree (which is oddly on both sides of the river) is more likely symbolic in nature, standing as a representation of eternal life, rather than being a source of it. We know that the glorified body will be physical, but that it can sustain damage would demand speculation, which speculation is doubt very much.

There is no "celestial salvation" taught in Scripture. In the Eternal State, as well as in Heaven right now, there are only one type of redeemed, all redeemed by the Blood (Death) of Christ. While rewards vary, we are saved the same way, and receive the same salvation.

There is no such thing as "former believers." either one believes or they do not.

I reckon we will find out soon enough.

I hope so, lol.

But I think we have already been given enough to make a conclusion in regards to this. In view is the glorified body as contrasted with the natural body. There is nothing about a "second inheritance" in the chapter, nor in Scripture that I am aware of.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The second death has no power over any believer. The second death is the second separation which is eternal. No believer need fear that.

If the elect has everlasting like as they are liken unto angels that can never die, then there is definitely no reason to even mention the second death, but there is because those coming our of the great tribulation can die a physical death..

The Second Death is not physical only, but spiritual. The First Death, so to speak, is that death in Adam, where man was separated from God.

Physical death in the Tribulation and Millennial Kingdom has nothing to do with the Second Death.

the first death.. for which there is necessity to give assurances that they will not die the second death.

Dying in the Tribulation or Millennial Kingdom is not what I view as the "First Death."

Before men die physically they are already considered "dead" according to Christ:


John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


"Eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ is defined in John 6 as believing in His Death.


49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The celestial bodies are distinguished from flesh. In view, I believe anyway, Paul is referring to the sun, moon and stars. He defines v.40 with v.41.

We could also see this as a reference to the distinction between bodies in Heaven itself and those here in this universe.

The point in the quoted Scripture here is that there are different bodies, each distinct from the other. The primary topic is the resurrection from the dead, and the distinction between the body we now have and the body we will have.

This refers to the fact that we are "sown," born, into fallen flesh. That fallen flesh will be raised in incorruption, glory, and power. The basic point is between the natural body and the glorified body, which Paul makes clear here:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54

King James Version (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

There is a reiteration of what he said earlier.
Click to expand...

Explain how there can be vessels unto dishonor in His House; of wood and earth?

"His House" is not in view. "A great house" is in view, in which we would expect to find vessels of every sort. The analogy is made to our being vessels of either honor or dishonor. We don't see this as meaning there are vessels of wood and earth in His House, but that in His House there are vessels of varying degree. Shall we say that the sinning Christian is not part of His House? Thus purging one's self is exhorted, that one might be a vessel unto honor.

Our works do not determine the body in which we will be raised in, for all of us will be raised in glorified form just as Christ was.

It is not works if we apply our faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd in helping us run that race by laying aside every weight and sin.

I agree, that is not what I was referring to. I was referring to the suggestion that there are celestial bodies and terrestrial in regards to the human body. There is just the natural and the spiritual (glorified).

Again, the vessel of honor contrasted with the vessel of dishonor has a temporal context, speaking of our place in the Body now. And while we know there is a distinction among saints in the Eternal State, that does not change the context of this passage.

Consider:


2 Timothy 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.


When does one purge themselves of those things? Here? Or in Heaven?

And if he does purge himself, then he shall be a vessel unto honor. The context is temporal.
Click to expand...

Yes, the context is temporal for when he is supposed to depart from iniquity and that is down here before the Bridegroom comes as no one in iniquity is allowed to attend the Marriage Supper.

So sinning Christians miss the Rapture? Does that mean those who died sinning miss it as well? Think about it. Paul makes it clear that the dead in Christ rise first. Are they raised and then not raptured? Where do they spend their time during the Tribulation?

That is what differentiates a vessel unto honor from the vessels unto dishonor. You are not going to have a dishonorable guest that has not been respecting you to attend your supper.

So one must meet a particular standard to be raptured?

The only requirement is that one is born again. All Christians sin, that is simply a fact. It will remain a fact as long as the natural body is still associated with Christians.

Another fact is that salvation is not a result of our efforts, we play absolutely no part in salvation. If we did, then we would not say Christ is the Savior, we would say we too are the Savior. And Scripture doesn't teach that.

Salvation is a result of God's intervention, in which the Comforter reveals the truth of the Gospel to men and they respond. No works play a part in that, and the works we do after we are saved are a result of salvation. We are saved unto good works, not by them, and if good works are lacking from our lives we have good reason to be concerned.

And all Christians start out ignorant and without much ability to perform good works. Good works increase as we grow in knowledge and understanding.

"Not abiding" refers to rejecting the truth. You will need to provide Scripture that speaks of a "castaway being received later," and then show how this pertains to eschatological events.

God bless.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Left behind, I see the purpose for that is to the destruction of their flesh as Satan will wage a war on the saints going through the great tribulation which are to be received later on.

Again, this has a temporal context. Just because someone who manifest a lifestyle that reveals unbelief is cast out of the Church...doesn't mean it has any relevance to the Rapture. Again, the Rapture is presented fairly simply: everyone in the Church goes, both from the dead as well as the living. This quote means what it means...sinning believers are to be cast out of the fellowship, which is a standard that extends back into the Old Testament. It's just a basic principle that is designed to keep the fellowship pure.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Well, we agree to disagree.

In case you haven't noticed, I seldom "agree to disagree," though I can see you are set in this position, lol.

I see what you are saying, but I don't think you are seeing what I am saying or how I am seeing it as to why God will judge His House first.

I have not denied God's judgment of His Own, simply pointed out that there is no Biblical justification for members of the Church being left behind to go through the Tribulation.

Paul was speaking to the entire Church when he taught that we have been delivered from the wrath to come, and while this has an eternal application as well...the passages are definitely speaking about the Rapture and the Tribulation.

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

This warning would fall flat if you say it can never happen to a saved believer.

I do say that eternal salvation and being left behind cannot happen to believers,

The above does not justify those positions in any way.

Notice those who do such things...do not have an inheritance?

Now let's see what Peter has to say about that inheritance:


1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


We do not maintain that inheritance through our works, it is kept by the power of God, and a result of the New Birth, which Peter mentions twice in the first chapter.

Again, there are only two types in the world...saved or lost.

If you have a brother living in sin, by His grace and by His help, you best warn him to repent looking to Jesus for help,

Agreed.

because he is at risk of being left behind when the Bridegroom comes.

Not agreed. Could you just look at your proof texts and consider you are inserting this into them? Overlooking what is actually said?

That brother is going to lose more than just the rewards of crowns, because he will be a castaway.

See Peter's statement again.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Again we see the same distinction of the two groups seen here:



2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Two groups...saved or lost.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And Jesus had given an answer that applies only to those that are His servants that are at risk of stripes as separated from unbelievers, but joining them for not being ready.

May God bless you too, brother.

So only those that are servants need fear Him that hath power to destroy both soul and body in Hell?

Okay, that's it for me for the night.

Thanks for the responses, I have enjoyed it.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

If that were the case, meaning this is the time of The Rapture, then there would be no physical humans left to produce those who reject God and join Satan when he is released at the end of the Millennial Kingdom:

This is illogical because the resurrection of the just will not sweep everyone off the face of the earth. Or what is the basis for imagining that it would leave the earth desolate?

Those resurrected in the First Resurrection are those who come to saving faith after the Tribulation begins. Seeing that all unbelievers will perish by the time the Tribulation and the Judgement of Christ (Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matthew 25)) occurs, if the Rapture took place at the end of the Tribulation there would be no physical humans to produce those seen above.

This is a mishmash of scriptures
First, explain why there would be multiple raptures of the saints prior to the FIRST resurrection.

You are forgetting the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses:

Revelation 11:11-12

King James Version (KJV)


11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

quoting the two witnesses borders on silly. Is this what Paul wrote about in Thessalonians? And notice they resurrect bodily first and then afterwards they are called to heaven. Their resurrection is like Lazarus' so their going to heaven is no different from Enoch's or Elijah. Hardly a rapture

This is not possible seeing that we have only part of the group Paul speaks of, the dead in Christ...being raised. There is no mention of the living being glorified:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

part of the group? So Paul's event is shattered to several and Revelation captures one but misses the biggest one called pre-trib during which the majority of the church are supposed to be raptured?

Can you from Revelation show me the resurrection of the other part of the group?

There is no indication that the Tribulation Martyrs are caught up.

Arguments from silence are notoriously unreliable. Don't even go there

I agree the Tribulation Martyrs go through the Tribulation, as they refuse the Mark of the Beast and subsequently die, which does not impact the Pre-Tribulation Rapture at all.

Revelation ONLY talks of this resurrection and not only that, it calls it FIRST which means it is the first and there is none before it. Care to show me another resurrection?

The Rapture of the Two Witnesses establishes a valid precedent. There is a rapture before the First Resurrection ("First" referring to rank, rather than sequence-see the Biblical Usage of protos).

This argument is without any merit. And this is why ALL bible translations settle on FIRST. The two witnesses came back to life just as Lazarus. That is not rapture. They were then caught up to heaven alive just like Elijah. Was Elijah raptured?

Furthermore, did the Lord descend with a shout and voice of an archangel? Do you see how desperate you are to classifly the two are raptured and therefore evidence of pre-FIRST resurrection resurrection?

Finally, that resurrection if at all you can call it thus is recorded in Revelation. Show me where your resurrection is recorded!

Agreed. The Rapture of the Church is not mentioned specifically in Revelation at all, due to the fact it takes place prior to the Tribulation, and is an event which remains a mystery as to it's occurrence.

How is it a mystery while Paul has twice on Corinthians and Thessalonians some twenty years before elaborated the same?

Is this event more mysterious that anything else John reveals in Revelation?

If it is so 'mysterious', how comes you have figured circumstances before,around and after it?

While I can see this...


Revelation 4

King James Version (KJV)


4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

...could be viewed as an embedded reference to the Rapture's occurence before the Tribulation unfolds, I do not think one should or can be dogmatic about it. What takes place is John is caught up to Heaven and going beyond that is something one can choose to do personally without being dogmatic.


God bless.

In fact, it can't!
If ANY of John's physical experience can be construed to be a prophetically significant event, I'd suggest we do that to all of his activities. Since it is utterly ridiculous to entertain that, let's forget about such shameless arbitrariness.

 

[vooks]

The first occurrence would be the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, however, there is debate concerning when Old Testament Saints are resurrected. I lean towards their resurrection taking place (at which point they are glorified) at the resurrection of the dead which follows the passing away of the current Universe, which fulfills the general resurrection Christ taught. I am not dogmatic about that, but cannot think of anything that would prevent that from being the case. I suppose that is what you have in mind based on statements like this:

Matthew 13:49King James Version (KJV)

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,



This can have application to both the Tribulation (at the end) as well as when the Universe passes away (though primarily these have a Tribulation context), as we see here...


Matthew 13:41King James Version (KJV)

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


Again, I would point out that the unbelieving will all perish before the Millennial Kingdom begins, as nothing that offends enters into that Kingdom:


Matthew 13:40-42King James Version (KJV)


40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.



Matthew 13:47-48King James Version (KJV)

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:


48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.


These have application both in the temporal sense of the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom as well as the Eternal State.


God bless.

I don't know about Old Testament saints but I do know this;

Revelation 20:6 (KJV)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Only those who have part in the first resurrection will escape the second death

 

[vooks]

Understanding Revelation is largely influenced by Calvinism(unconditional eternal security) and its opposite(conditional eternal security).

Be that as it may,
Pre-trib nonsense falls flat on the absolute silence of this great book on their most wonderous event; rapture. A pre-trib theorist pretends to have a full grasp of what ensues following their rapture but they can't point to that event!

 

[vooks]

Question for the pre trib theorists

Will there be natural deaths after rapture?

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

If that were the case, meaning this is the time of The Rapture, then there would be no physical humans left to produce those who reject God and join Satan when he is released at the end of the Millennial Kingdom:

This is illogical because the resurrection of the just will not sweep everyone off the face of the earth. Or what is the basis for imagining that it would leave the earth desolate?

Nothing I said even corresponds to your reply.

The point is not that the resurrection of the Just sweeps everyone off the earth, but that is all believers were raptured at the end of the Tribulation then all people on the earth would be in glorified form. All unbelievers perish by the time the Millennial Kingdom is established, thus, if the rapture occurs at that time all are glorified.

Not sure where you are getting the earth being desolate.

Those resurrected in the First Resurrection are those who come to saving faith after the Tribulation begins. Seeing that all unbelievers will perish by the time the Tribulation and the Judgement of Christ (Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matthew 25)) occurs, if the Rapture took place at the end of the Tribulation there would be no physical humans to produce those seen above.

This is a mishmash of scriptures
First, explain why there would be multiple raptures of the saints prior to the FIRST resurrection.

Mishmash? Not at all. Would you care to show me Scripture that has unbelievers surviving the Tribulation, Sheep and Goat Judgment, and then entering into the Kingdom?

As far as why there are multiple Rapture events, we know this because they are recorded in Scripture. We have the Rapture of the Church, at which time everyone in the Church is Raptured, both living and dead, and we have the Rapture of the Two Witnesses. We can call this a Rapture because flesh and blood cannot pass into Heaven. The belief that Enoch and Elijah did so is, in my view, not only erroneous but it conflicts with other passages of Scripture which make it clear that men did not even go to Heaven prior to the Cross.

You are forgetting the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses:

Revelation 11:11-12

King James Version (KJV)


11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Click to expand...

quoting the two witnesses borders on silly.

Not at all. They physically die, are resurrected, and then caught up to Heaven.

No different than the Rapture of the Church.

Is this what Paul wrote about in Thessalonians?

Absolutely.

And notice they resurrect bodily first and then afterwards they are called to heaven.

This is true.

Their resurrection is like Lazarus' so their going to heaven is no different from Enoch's or Elijah.

This is not.

Natural flesh does not enter into Heaven.

Give me Scripture that teaches that Enoch or Elijah went to Heaven.


Continued...

 

[vooks]

Nothing I said even corresponds to your reply.

The point is not that the resurrection of the Just sweeps everyone off the earth, but that is all believers were raptured at the end of the Tribulation then all people on the earth would be in glorified form. All unbelievers perish by the time the Millennial Kingdom is established, thus, if the rapture occurs at that time all are glorified.

Not sure where you are getting the earth being desolate.

Explain the highlighted
How would resurrection of the just leave all people on earth in glorified form?