Where do I Find Rapture in Revelation?

[Darrell C]

There is no indication that the Tribulation Martyrs are caught up.

Arguments from silence are notoriously unreliable. Don't even go there

It's not my argument...I'm not the one trying to make the First Resurrection the Rapture.

The argument belongs to Post-Trib believers.

I agree the Tribulation Martyrs go through the Tribulation, as they refuse the Mark of the Beast and subsequently die, which does not impact the Pre-Tribulation Rapture at all.

Revelation ONLY talks of this resurrection and not only that, it calls it FIRST which means it is the first and there is none before it. Care to show me another resurrection?

Already did: the Two Witnesses.

If you want to see this as a bodily resurrection only, okay. Happy for you.

The other resurrection takes place at the passing away of this Universe:


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


This demands that the rest of the dead will be resurrected at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, then to stand before the Great White Throne.

The Rapture of the Two Witnesses establishes a valid precedent. There is a rapture before the First Resurrection ("First" referring to rank, rather than sequence-see the Biblical Usage of protos).

This argument is without any merit.

On the contrary...it is the only position that can be reconciled to the Whole Counsel of God's Word.

And this is why ALL bible translations settle on FIRST.

It is a misleading translation.

Do we see "first" in a context of sequence here...


Mark 12:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?


Was He asking which commandment came first? Or which was the greatest?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Explain the highlighted
How would resurrection of the just leave all people on earth in glorified form?

That is explained in the post.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

That is explained in the post.


God bless.

I can't see it nowhere in your post.

 

[vooks]

So Paul wastes an entire chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians explaining the blessed hope of resurrection and to John this significant event is totally absent?

 

[Darrell C]

The two witnesses came back to life just as Lazarus.

It cannot be a bodily resurrection because they are carried into Heaven.

That is not rapture. They were then caught up to heaven alive just like Elijah.

Elijah was caught up to the heavens, not Heaven.

In that day men went to Sheol/Hades, not Heaven. It would not be until their sins were atoned for that they would be carried into Heaven.

Was Elijah raptured?

No, when Elijah did die, his body went into a grave and his spirit went to Sheol.

Furthermore, did the Lord descend with a shout and voice of an archangel?

No, that occurs at the Rapture.

And it is His voice, not that of an Angel. In the Rapture, Christ collects His Church Personally.

Do you see how desperate you are to classifly the two are raptured and therefore evidence of pre-FIRST resurrection resurrection?

If we want to speak about the "first" resurrection and catching away...

...that would the Resurrection of Christ.

Not the Tribulation Martyrs.

Finally, that resurrection if at all you can call it thus is recorded in Revelation. Show me where your resurrection is recorded!

Be glad to:


Revelation 11:8-12

King James Version (KJV)

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Agreed. The Rapture of the Church is not mentioned specifically in Revelation at all, due to the fact it takes place prior to the Tribulation, and is an event which remains a mystery as to it's occurrence.

How is it a mystery while Paul has twice on Corinthians and Thessalonians some twenty years before elaborated the same?

Note that I said "...as to it's occurrence."

I did not say the Rapture itself is still a mystery. That was revealed by the Spirit through Paul nearly 2,000 years ago.

Is this event more mysterious that anything else John reveals in Revelation?

No, and John does not reveal the Rapture of the Church in Revelation. Again...Paul did that.

If it is so 'mysterious', how comes you have figured circumstances before,around and after it?

The timing of the Rapture of the Church remains a mystery, that has not been revealed to us. But, because no other position can be reconciled, this remains the best position to embrace.

And it is quite enjoyable defending it.

While I can see this...


Revelation 4

King James Version (KJV)


4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

...could be viewed as an embedded reference to the Rapture's occurence before the Tribulation unfolds, I do not think one should or can be dogmatic about it. What takes place is John is caught up to Heaven and going beyond that is something one can choose to do personally without being dogmatic.


God bless.
Click to expand...

In fact, it can't!

It can.

God calls John up...then the Tribulation begins. But as I said, I am not dogmatic on that, though I don't ridicule those who are.

If ANY of John's physical experience can be construed to be a prophetically significant event, I'd suggest we do that to all of his activities.

Can you show me how John's experience...is physical?


Revelation 1

King James Version (KJV)

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


And, you don't think his experience is prophetically significant?

Since it is utterly ridiculous to entertain that, let's forget about such shameless arbitrariness.

I would agree, it is utterly ridiculous.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I can't see it nowhere in your post.

But you did see me saying the earth would be destroyed?

Interesting.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

So Paul wastes an entire chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians explaining the blessed hope of resurrection and to John this significant event is totally absent?

Follow this verse...

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

So how every man shall be made alive will be in this order;

....Christ the firstfruits; ...

That's the pre trib raptured saints here with firstfruits being plural.

...afterward they that are Christ's at his coming....

That's the saints left behind that are cast into the bed of the great tribulation in coming out of the great tribulation at His coming.

Now think about it. If there was only one resurrection, then why mention the order for which every man shall be made alive in Christ?

If it was just Christ, then there would be no point to set an order for how every man will be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order:....

 

[Darrell C]

I don't know about Old Testament saints but I do know this;

Revelation 20:6 (KJV)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Only those who have part in the first resurrection will escape the second death

Those who dwell in the Millennial Kingdom, which follows the First Resurrection, will still need to be glorified. They dwell in that Kingdom physically, which brings us back to the very first point in the other post:

If the Rapture of the Church takes place at the end of the Tribulation, then everyone on earth would be glorified, which means we nullify the possibility of a large group rebelling against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. We would have to say that glorified believers exist in that Kingdom, procreate, and the offspring that rebels are glorified people.

Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

In order to reconcile this problem we would have to say that unbelievers enter into the Kingdom, which stands in contradiction to the Lord's teaching. As mentioned, Matthew 25 makes it clear that unbelievers that physically survive the Tribulation are destroyed at the Sheep and Goat Judgment. Thus only believers who lived through the Tribulation who physically survive and stand at the Sheep and Goat Judgment enter into that Kingdom. Their offspring is the source of the rebellious group at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

It cannot be a bodily resurrection because they are carried into Heaven.

They are resurrected first and everyone is amazed. Then called up to heaven. Farfetched thinking is required to call it rapture

Elijah was caught up to the heavens, not Heaven.

Splitting hairs is your forte. So where did he go? Mars?

In that day men went to Sheol/Hades, not Heaven. It would not be until their sins were atoned for that they would be carried into Heaven.

Fertile imagination

No, when Elijah did die, his body went into a grave and his spirit went to Sheol.

When did he die?
He returned from the heavenly trip?

And it is His voice, not that of an Angel. In the Rapture, Christ collects His Church Personally.

He says he will send His angels. Ever read the gospels?

If we want to speak about the "first" resurrection and catching away...

...that would the Resurrection of Christ.

Not the Tribulation Martyrs.

1 Cor 15 is mighty clear; BOTH rapture and resurrection are separated by a fraction of a moment. Paul repeats this in Thessalonians

Be glad to:


Revelation 11:8-12

King James Version (KJV)

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Already explained

Note that I said "...as to it's occurrence."

Hairs split again. What is the difference between an event and its occurrence? Timing? If it is timing, Paul still went to talk about it. Why is John silent on it? Was it a mystery for John but not Paul?

I did not say the Rapture itself is still a mystery. That was revealed by the Spirit through Paul nearly 2,000 years ago.

What's the difference between an event and its occurrence?

No, and John does not reveal the Rapture of the Church in Revelation. Again...Paul did that.

They both reveal resurrection, so what's your point?

The timing of the Rapture of the Church remains a mystery, that has not been revealed to us. But, because no other position can be reconciled, this remains the best position to embrace.

Strawmen. We have no clue when ANY of the events recorded in Revelation will transpire yet they are all there. So it is silly to claim John kept off rapture because nobody knows it's timing

And it is quite enjoyable defending it.







In fact, it can't!

Let the defense be sensible and you got yourself a buddy. I'm so in love with reason and logic and at the same time allergic to nonsense

It can.

God calls John up...then the Tribulation begins. But as I said, I am not dogmatic on that, though I don't ridicule those who are.




Can you show me how John's experience...is physical?


Revelation 1

King James Version (KJV)

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


And, you don't think his experience is prophetically significant?




I would agree, it is utterly ridiculous.

God bless.

John's experience whether physical or spiritual is John's and you MUST not extrapolate that to the church

 

[vooks]

Those who dwell in the Millennial Kingdom, which follows the First Resurrection, will still need to be glorified. They dwell in that Kingdom physically, which brings us back to the very first point in the other post:

Why is this? Why do they need glorified bodies?

If the Rapture of the Church takes place at the end of the Tribulation, then everyone on earth would be glorified, which means we nullify the possibility of a large group rebelling against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. We would have to say that glorified believers exist in that Kingdom, procreate, and the offspring that rebels are glorified people.

Why would everyone be glorified?

Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

In order to reconcile this problem we would have to say that unbelievers enter into the Kingdom, which stands in contradiction to the Lord's teaching. As mentioned, Matthew 25 makes it clear that unbelievers that physically survive the Tribulation are destroyed at the Sheep and Goat Judgment. Thus only believers who lived through the Tribulation who physically survive and stand at the Sheep and Goat Judgment enter into that Kingdom. Their offspring is the source of the rebellious group at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.
God bless.

You don't make no sense at all or are poor at a articulating yourself...or both.

What is the logical problem with the resurrection of the just taking place in Rev 20 after the beast is destroyed and not before?

 

[Darrell C]

Explain the highlighted
How would resurrection of the just leave all people on earth in glorified form?

Old Testament understanding of the Resurrection was a singular event, rather than having resurrections that occur at different time (i.e., the Rapture, the Two Witnesses, the Tribulation Martyrs, and the resurrection of both the Just and Unjust just prior to the Great White Throne). Daniel wrote...



Daniel 12:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This indicates a resurrection that includes both just and unjust, which is why Paul states he reveals a mystery (a previously unrevealed truth) in teaching about the Rapture of the Church. We know Scripture is not wrong, and while even if the just and unjust are resurrected at different times Daniel and every passage that indicates a resurrection that includes both just and unjust would still be true, because it is a general statement that presents facts concerning resurrection. It would be like me saying "The False Prophet, Antichrist, and Satan will be cast into Hell." Very true, but my statement might lead someone to believe that they are cast into Hell at the same time.

Now, getting back to the question, Paul teaches that everyone in the Church will be raised at the Rapture. Seeing that the unbelieving population will not enter into the Millennial Kingdom, if the Rapture takes place at the end, and the First Resurrection is the Rapture...everyone left on earth is in glorified form (which makes procreation unlikely based on Christ's statement concerning this).

But wait, we have one more problem: we do not remain on earth. We go to Heaven.

So this leaves no-one on the earth.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I have had to re-post this due to a quoting error that the Editor will not let me correct...it keeps putting a quote at the end, collapsing the post.

Hardly a rapture

A rapture, but not The Rapture of the Church. That would have taken place at least forty two months earlier.

This is not possible seeing that we have only part of the group Paul speaks of, the dead in Christ...being raised. There is no mention of the living being glorified:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

part of the group?

Yes, part of the group. In the Rapture of the Church we have both living and dead in Christ being raptured. The First Resurrection pertains only to Tribulation Martyrs.

So Paul's event is shattered to several

Not at all.

and Revelation captures one but misses the biggest one called pre-trib during which the majority of the church are supposed to be raptured?

Revelation gives a description of events concerning the Tribulation Period for the most part. That is the focus of the Book. No need to give an account for something already stated.

Can you from Revelation show me the resurrection of the other part of the group?

No, because "the other part of the group" are living believers, they are raptured before the Tribulation...not during it.

The resurrections in Revelation are the Two Witnesses, the Tribulation Martyrs, then the general resurrection at the Great White Throne. We could also include the notion that Antichrist suffers a mortal wound and dies, and is then resurrected, but I am not dogmatic on that because in view could be a false resurrection or a resurrection of another sort, such as a political resurrection. An example of that would be a President retaining his Office after his term comes to an end.


God bless.[/QUOTE]

 

[vooks]

Old Testament understanding of the Resurrection was a singular event, rather than having resurrections that occur at different time (i.e., the Rapture, the Two Witnesses, the Tribulation Martyrs, and the resurrection of both the Just and Unjust just prior to the Great White Throne).

Nonsense. We have the OT and the NT and we work with both. Ecclesiastes famously professed ignorance over the destination of the spirits of man and animals. And if I may mention OT has very little mention of Satan. These two facts have led some into error with some doubting existence of man's spirit and the latter a literal being called Satan

This indicates a resurrection that includes both just and unjust, which is why Paul states he reveals a mystery (a previously unrevealed truth) in teaching about the Rapture of the Church. We know Scripture is not wrong, and while even if the just and unjust are resurrected at different times Daniel and every passage that indicates a resurrection that includes both just and unjust would still be true, because it is a general statement that presents facts concerning resurrection. It would be like me saying "The False Prophet, Antichrist, and Satan will be cast into Hell." Very true, but my statement might lead someone to believe that they are cast into Hell at the same time.

It would if Daniel was all we had.
Paul's mystery is not resurrection as this was believed by Jews wel before. Recall Martha? The mystery are in the DETAILS

Now, getting back to the question, Paul teaches that everyone in the Church will be raised at the Rapture. Seeing that the unbelieving population will not enter into the Millennial Kingdom, if the Rapture takes place at the end, and the First Resurrection is the Rapture...everyone left on earth is in glorified form (which makes procreation unlikely based on Christ's statement concerning this).

If there is a resurrection and rapture of the Just at the 'end', what happens to the unjust at this point?

But wait, we have one more problem: we do not remain on earth. We go to Heaven.

So this leaves no-one on the earth.


God bless.

You do not make any sense at all. Resurrection in Rev 20 is for the just. The unjust either remain dead or alive on earth and they Re the ones Satan gather to fight

 

[vooks]

I

The resurrections in Revelation are the Two Witnesses, the Tribulation Martyrs, then the general resurrection at the Great White Throne. We could also include the notion that Antichrist suffers a mortal wound and dies, and is then resurrected, but I am not dogmatic on that because in view could be a false resurrection or a resurrection of another sort, such as a political resurrection. An example of that would be a President retaining his Office after his term comes to an end.


God bless.

Where is the resurrection of the church that Paul so looked forward to in Thessalonians among these?

And could you kindly indicate verses for these three resurrections in Revelation ?

Thanks

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
Those who dwell in the Millennial Kingdom, which follows the First Resurrection, will still need to be glorified. They dwell in that Kingdom physically, which brings us back to the very first point in the other post:

Why is this? Why do they need glorified bodies?[/QUOTE]

Because everyone is resurrected by the time the world passes, both the Just and the Unjust.

If the Rapture of the Church takes place at the end of the Tribulation, then everyone on earth would be glorified, which means we nullify the possibility of a large group rebelling against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. We would have to say that glorified believers exist in that Kingdom, procreate, and the offspring that rebels are glorified people.

Why would everyone be glorified?

Because the Rapture is a resurrection of the Church into glorified bodies. If the First Resurrection is the Rapture Paul teaches...everyone would be glorified.

In order to reconcile this problem we would have to say that unbelievers enter into the Kingdom, which stands in contradiction to the Lord's teaching. As mentioned, Matthew 25 makes it clear that unbelievers that physically survive the Tribulation are destroyed at the Sheep and Goat Judgment. Thus only believers who lived through the Tribulation who physically survive and stand at the Sheep and Goat Judgment enter into that Kingdom. Their offspring is the source of the rebellious group at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.
God bless.
Click to expand...

You don't make no sense at all or are poor at a articulating yourself...or both.

Yeah, I know.

What is the logical problem with the resurrection of the just taking place in Rev 20 after the beast is destroyed and not before?

Part of the Just are resurrected in the First Resurrection. But we still have everyone in the Millennial Kingdom left who will need to be resurrected before entering eternity.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

Why is this? Why do they need glorified bodies?[

Because everyone is resurrected by the time the world passes, both the Just and the Unjust.

But do you see the world passing in Revelation 20 at the point of resurrection or even thereafter before the resurrection of the unjust?

When are you going to learn to separate your fertile imagination from scriptures?

Because the Rapture is a resurrection of the Church into glorified bodies. If the First Resurrection is the Rapture Paul teaches...everyone would be glorified.

Evidence of your claim is not to repeat them but to prove them

Part of the Just are resurrected in the First Resurrection. But we still have everyone in the Millennial Kingdom left who will need to be resurrected before entering eternity.
God bless.

And where else do you find other just resurrected?
Think. Wouldn't this for. The majority seeing it spans from Pentecost to rapture date?

Where is this?

That's my question. So far all you have succeeded doing is digressing

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

Old Testament understanding of the Resurrection was a singular event, rather than having resurrections that occur at different time (i.e., the Rapture, the Two Witnesses, the Tribulation Martyrs, and the resurrection of both the Just and Unjust just prior to the Great White Throne).

Nonsense. We have the OT and the NT and we work with both. Ecclesiastes famously professed ignorance over the destination of the spirits of man and animals. And if I may mention OT has very little mention of Satan. These two facts have led some into error with some doubting existence of man's spirit and the latter a literal being called Satan

Nothing in this is relevant to what I said.

It is a well known fact that the understanding of the Jews was that the resurrection was a singular fact.

And I would like to know anyone that doubted the existence of man's spirit.

On second though, never mind.

This indicates a resurrection that includes both just and unjust, which is why Paul states he reveals a mystery (a previously unrevealed truth) in teaching about the Rapture of the Church. We know Scripture is not wrong, and while even if the just and unjust are resurrected at different times Daniel and every passage that indicates a resurrection that includes both just and unjust would still be true, because it is a general statement that presents facts concerning resurrection. It would be like me saying "The False Prophet, Antichrist, and Satan will be cast into Hell." Very true, but my statement might lead someone to believe that they are cast into Hell at the same time.
Click to expand...

It would if Daniel was all we had.

So you deny that there will be a resurrection that includes both the Just and Unjust?

Paul's mystery is not resurrection as this was believed by Jews wel before. Recall Martha? The mystery are in the DETAILS

That was the point.

Now, getting back to the question, Paul teaches that everyone in the Church will be raised at the Rapture. Seeing that the unbelieving population will not enter into the Millennial Kingdom, if the Rapture takes place at the end, and the First Resurrection is the Rapture...everyone left on earth is in glorified form (which makes procreation unlikely based on Christ's statement concerning this).

If there is a resurrection and rapture of the Just at the 'end', what happens to the unjust at this point?

They are raised from the dead in bodies suited for eternal punishment. It is simply a fact that the unjust will be raised as well as the Just.

But wait, we have one more problem: we do not remain on earth. We go to Heaven.

So this leaves no-one on the earth.


God bless.

You do not make any sense at all.

Yeah, I get that a lot.

Resurrection in Rev 20 is for the just.

We see both the Just (Tribulation Martyrs, specifically) and the Unjust ("the rest of the dead) raised again in Revelation 20.

The unjust either remain dead or alive on earth and they Re the ones Satan gather to fight

The Sheep and Goat Judgment in Matthew 25 makes it clear that unbelievers enter into eternal punishment and do not enter into the Millennial Kingdom.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

Nothing in this is relevant to what I said.

It is a well known fact that the understanding of the Jews was that the resurrection was a singular fact.

It also well known that scriptures separate resurrection of the unjust from that of the just. What do we work with? The 'understanding of the Jews or scriptures'?

And I would like to know anyone that doubted the existence of man's spirit.

On second though, never mind.

An example of building doctrine from the deficiency of OT revelation

So you deny that there will be a resurrection that includes both the Just and Unjust?

None I can find.
But Holy Spirit tells me there is a resurrection in Rev 20:4 and all its participants will never go through the second death, and there is another reported in Rev 20:5 happening in 20:11-13

They are raised from the dead in bodies suited for eternal punishment.

Oh yes they are in 20:11-13

It is simply a fact that the unjust will be raised as well as the Just.

An even simpler fact is the Just are raised in 20:4 while the Unjust are raised much later in 20:11-13

We see both the Just (Tribulation Martyrs, specifically) and the Unjust ("the rest of the dead) raised again in Revelation 20.

And their respective resurrection are a thousand years apart. Not sure if this is literal but what is clear is Holy Spirit tells me they are separate events

The Sheep and Goat Judgment in Matthew 25 makes it clear that unbelievers enter into eternal punishment and do not enter into the Millennial Kingdom.
God bless.

Yes and this is why after they are raised in Rev 20:11-13, they are judged and sent straight to hell

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
Why is this? Why do they need glorified bodies?[

Because everyone is resurrected by the time the world passes, both the Just and the Unjust.


But do you see the world passing in Revelation 20 at the point of resurrection or even thereafter before the resurrection of the unjust?

Common sense would dictate that they are raised prior to the universe passing away, or simultaneously, else we would suppose their bodies would go with the universe. It seems to me that when the Throne appears the dead are already there:


Revelation 20:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When are you going to learn to separate your fertile imagination from scriptures?

That will follow someone presenting an argument that denies my position.

If that happens, I will gladly change my doctrinal position.

Because the Rapture is a resurrection of the Church into glorified bodies. If the First Resurrection is the Rapture Paul teaches...everyone would be glorified.

Evidence of your claim is not to repeat them but to prove them

So find someone who agrees with you that Paul is not teaching all believers are resurrected and glorified at the Rapture.

I agree I will not continue to repeat the same things over and over.

Part of the Just are resurrected in the First Resurrection.

That is correct: only Tribulation Martyrs are raised.

Which denies the possibility this is the Rapture of the Church, because the other group, those that remain alive in the Church...are not raised.

It is not an argument from silence, Scripture is clear that those raised died. It specifically states that. We would have to impose living believers being glorified at this time in order to make this a Rapture.

But we still have everyone in the Millennial Kingdom left who will need to be resurrected before entering eternity.
God bless.

And where else do you find other just resurrected?

Again, The Two Witnesses, The Tribulation Martyrs, and then finally those who die during the Millennial Kingdom.

Think. Wouldn't this for. The majority seeing it spans from Pentecost to rapture date?

Where is this?

That's my question.

You will need to rephrase your question as I cannot understand what you are asking here.

So far all you have succeeded doing is digressing

Actually I would agree with you.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Where is the resurrection of the church that Paul so looked forward to in Thessalonians among these?

Again, the Rapture of the Church is not found in Revelation.

And could you kindly indicate verses for these three resurrections in Revelation ?

Thanks

I have done so.

Be glad to:


Revelation 11:8-12

King James Version (KJV)

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

(Post 125)

Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


(Post 121)

God bless.