Berean Proof the Nicene Creed of 381 A.D. Challenge

[Hark]

I think the primary point Christ is teaching in regards to the Comforter rests in a context of salvation, rather than a universal pattern of worship.

Explaining what the Holy Spirit is sent to do is hardly confined to the context of salvation.

Granted, knowing that we can know the real Holy Spirit as dwelling in us and abide in us forever is key to OSAS, but it is also for discerning other spirits that come over a believer later on in life to know that is not the Holy Spirit, and Jesus did point out other duties of the Holy Spirit.

He cannot speak for Himself ( John 16:13 ) He is the Spirit of the Father when Jesus was on earth and now He is the Spirit of Christ when Jesus is above. The Spirit cannot be the Spirit of the Spirit. He cannot speak for Himself at all. That means God's gift of tongues cannot be used by the Holy Spirit to speak TO God. This is why the KJV uses "itself" in Romans 8:26-27 because in verse 27, this "he" is the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit since the intercessions of the Spirit's are unspeakable for the Spirit cannot utter them to make them known verbally or by any sounds whatsoever since even his groaning cannot be uttered.

Plus, since He cannot speak for Himself, how can He lead believers to speak for Himself in seeking His own glory when that would mean there is unrighteousness in God in how the Spirit witness?

John 5: 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

So the Holy Spirit is sent to glorify the Son.

John 16:14 He shall glorify me:

The only way He can do that is through us as that testimony of the Son in worship is how the Spirit will glorify the Son through us.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

As pointed out, when we worship God we are worshipping the Spirit of God as well. We do not separate God into three Gods Who each have an assigned rank.

What do see this...


Acts 20:27-28

King James Version (KJV)

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


...as meaning (and this is open for anyone who would like to comment)?


God bless.

It is apostasy that the Three Persons of the Triune God are singled out in hymnals, like this one hymn where the third verse goes like this; "Spirit, we love you, we worship, and adore you... glorify thy name in all the earth...".

It is apostasy that sometimes, the hymnals focus only on the Holy Spirit.

It is apostasy because Jesus said plainly; when you are not honoring the Son, you are not honoring the Father. There is no other way to honor the Father by since the Holy Spirit has been sent to honor the Son by testifying of the Son to glorify the Son THROUGH us.

I kind of wish the Lord would lead Protestant to get involve in this since he has alluded that he does the Berean approach to scripture, but I have made him mad somehow in that other thread, and so I better not tag him to come here.

I will have to hope that the Lord will lead him to do that Berean approach to scripture in proving everything in regards to this topic without my prompting him to do it. Like many other members, including myself, I reckon his time is limited to a certain amount of threads, but Jesus is Lord. It is His ministry after all.

 

[church mouse guy]

Okay. Thank you for sharing.

The question is;

How can we worship the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit will not lead us to speak of Himself in seeking His own glory with the Father & the Son?

I trust the Lord to draw your attention back to the scriptures in the second post next to the OP as to why those references you mentioned do not null and void them at all, and how the way you are applying your references, those scripture in the second post next to the OP reproves such application. But again, I leave you in God's hand.

Thank you for sharing, brother.

Well, I think that you point is not valid at all and the Nicene Creed stands because there is only one God, as both the Old Testament and the New Testament teach. In fact, I consider your question reprehensible.

 

[Darrell C]

Explaining what the Holy Spirit is sent to do is hardly confined to the context of salvation.

A context concerning instruction about the coming of the Comforter is most certainly confined to a context of salvation.

In other words, "When He comes, He will not glorify Himself, but Christ." That does not mean that He has taken a role where He does nothing but Glorify Christ, or, that we are forbidden to worship Him. Again, when we worship Christ, we worship the Spirit of God. When we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we are indwelt by the Father and Son.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Well, I think that you point is not valid at all and the Nicene Creed stands because there is only one God, as both the Old Testament and the New Testament teach. In fact, I consider your question reprehensible.

Did the Triune God died on the cross? Or is that glory given to the Son only? Philippians 2:5-10

Is the credit is to the Father that draws men unto the Son or is it the Holy Spirit's? John 6:44 & John 6:65 & Matthew 11;25-27 & John 6:39

Is the glory of God's on the Son or is there another way to glorify God by? John 13:31-32

So how is God the Father specifically honored? John 5:23

So how is God specifically glorified by in Whose name is above every other name? Philippians 2:9-11 And why is that name exalted again? Philippians 2:5-10

Now what is the Holy Spirit, Whom is also God, supposed to be doing? John 16:14

Now how is He going to glorify the Son except through us in worship? John 15:26-27

This is why there are no scripture teaching the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, because it runs against His words in scripture.

Which is more reprehensible? Not abiding in Him & His words because of a practice derived out of assumption by men or reproving by the scripture the status quo of a long held church practice?

 

[church mouse guy]

Did the Triune God died on the cross? Or is that glory given to the Son only? Philippians 2:5-10

Is the credit is to the Father that draws men unto the Son or is it the Holy Spirit's? John 6:44 & John 6:65 & Matthew 11;25-27 & John 6:39

Is the glory of God's on the Son or is there another way to glorify God by? John 13:31-32

So how is God the Father specifically honored? John 5:23

So how is God specifically glorified by in Whose name is above every other name? Philippians 2:9-11 And why is that name exalted again? Philippians 2:5-10

Now what is the Holy Spirit, Whom is also God, supposed to be doing? John 16:14

Now how is He going to glorify the Son except through us in worship? John 15:26-27

This is why there are no scripture teaching the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, because it runs against His words in scripture.

Which is more reprehensible? Not abiding in Him & His words because of a practice derived out of assumption by men or reproving by the scripture the status quo of a long held church practice?

I don't know why I was invited to comment on this thread--perhaps it was an error. I myself worship one God, as Jesus commanded.

 

[Hark]

A context concerning instruction about the coming of the Comforter is most certainly confined to a context of salvation.

In other words, "When He comes, He will not glorify Himself, but Christ." That does not mean that He has taken a role where He does nothing but Glorify Christ, or, that we are forbidden to worship Him. Again, when we worship Christ, we worship the Spirit of God. When we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we are indwelt by the Father and Son.

God bless.

To be a true Witness, The Holy Spirit cannot speak of Himself in seeking His own glory at all. He witnesses through us and so He cannot lead us to witness any other way in worship other than to testify of the Son to glorify the Son and thereby honoring the Father's request for believers to honor the Father by only honoring the Son.

There is no other way to come to and worship God the Father by. John 14:6

There is no way the Holy Spirit would point otherwise in worship.

 

[Hark]

I don't know why I was invited to comment on this thread--perhaps it was an error. I myself worship one God, as Jesus commanded.

But where is the glory of that One God? How is the glory of that One God glorified by? The Son. John 13:31-32

Is the Son the Bridegroom or not? Then how is the bride to behave in worship? By honoring the Son as led by the Spirit of God to do, we are honoring God the Father.

There is no dishonoring the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is leading us only to honor the Son in order to honor the Father.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The point of the OP is to prove everything by the scripture and there is no basis for that practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

I'm sorry, but you don't get it.
When you are worshipping the Triune God you are worshipping the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is one Person of the Trinity.

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

If the 'Lord' here is Yahveh, the Triune God, then when you sing these 'psalms, hymns and spiritual songs,' you are singing them to the Holy Spirit even if you don't realise it.

Therefore the Creed is entirely correct as generations of Christians have found it to be.

I'm sorry, I meant Isaiah 64:1, not 61:1.

 

[John of Japan]

Maybe not the word worship in that particular reference, but the practice of worship is there when you sing TO the Lord.

You have a modern presupposition that singing is worship. That is not in the Bible.

Did you take that at face value or did you prove that by the Bible?

It's a fact of the history of the first three centuries of the church. Please note the book on that history I mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[Darrell C]

To be a true Witness, The Holy Spirit cannot speak of Himself in seeking His own glory at all. He witnesses through us and so He cannot lead us to witness any other way in worship other than to testify of the Son to glorify the Son and thereby honoring the Father's request for believers to honor the Father by only honoring the Son.

There is no other way to come to and worship God the Father by. John 14:6

There is no way the Holy Spirit would point otherwise in worship.

The Holy Spirit is the only means of being a proper witness for Christ, and we honor Christ in teaching that which He taught in regards to the Comforter. Does He not command us to teach all that He taught?

God bless.

 

[church mouse guy]

But where is the glory of that One God? How is the glory of that One God glorified by? The Son. John 13:31-32

Is the Son the Bridegroom or not? Then how is the bride to behave in worship? By honoring the Son as led by the Spirit of God to do, we are honoring God the Father.

There is no dishonoring the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is leading us only to honor the Son in order to honor the Father.

You know, I believe the ancient creed, although I do not use it. I have cited Scripture and you have said that that Scripture was not satisfactory to you. You have raised other issues. OK, count me out, okay?

 

[Hark]

I'm sorry, but you don't get it.
When you are worshipping the Triune God you are worshipping the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is one Person of the Trinity.

I understand the assumption based on the reality of the Triune God for which the practice has come from, but that practice is not specifically instructed as such in scripture BUT it is instructed by the Father on how He wants us to come to and honor Him in worship and that is by the only way of the Son plainly in the scripture. That's the truth here.

If the 'Lord' here is Yahveh, the Triune God, then when you sing these 'psalms, hymns and spiritual songs,' you are singing them to the Holy Spirit even if you don't realise it.

Therefore the Creed is entirely correct as generations of Christians have found it to be.

And that is why the way to worship is hard to find in these latter days. Matthew 7:13-14 The answer is to narrow it back to the Son ( Luke 13:24 )

I'm sorry, I meant Isaiah 64:1, not 61:1.

That's okay. I have made a mistake in reference too, however, I think you need to refer to what Bible version you are using, because when you point your mouse over that reference, the forum generating that scripture does not say it the way you had quoted it earlier.

Isaiah 64: 1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence, 2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence! KJV

That sounds like a prophecy about Jesus coming back to earth as the King of kings.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. KJV

Sorry. I do not see your quoted version as correct as inferring the Holy Spirit, whatever that version was.

 

[Hark]

The Holy Spirit is the only means of being a proper witness for Christ, and we honor Christ in teaching that which He taught in regards to the Comforter. Does He not command us to teach all that He taught?

God bless.

Has Jesus taught us to honor the Holy Spirit?

Has Jesus taught us to glorify the Holy Spirit?

Has Jesus taught us to worship the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son?

Jesus has taught us that the Holy Spirit is God and of the Triune God.

But Jesus told us how the Father wants us to honor Him by.

Jesus told us that the glory of God was in His Son.

Paul told us that the name of the Son Whom died for us is the name above every other name to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus told us what a false witness is and what a true witness is.

Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit is sent to glorify the Son through us.

So worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son runs against scripture in how the Father wants us to come to Him to honor Him by.

P.S. Incidentally, Santha had helped me earlier in figuring out the tagging thing. I forgot to give full credit to him as I could not figure out why it was not working.

 

[Hark]

You know, I believe the ancient creed, although I do not use it. I have cited Scripture and you have said that that Scripture was not satisfactory to you. You have raised other issues.

Only because scripture cannot go against scripture, and that is why I believe you are misapplying those scriptural references wrong even when it is not plainly teaching to worship the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

OK, count me out, okay?

Okay, brother. I appreciated your participation. I do not know everything in the Bible, nor every topic of truth in the Bible, but this truth stands out because I believe that was what Jesus was warning about in Matthew 7:13-27 & why Luke 13:24-30 is the solution and the reason to avoid it.

 

[Darrell C]

Has Jesus taught us to honor the Holy Spirit?

Has Jesus taught us to glorify the Holy Spirit?

Has Jesus taught us to worship the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son?

Jesus has taught us that the Holy Spirit is God and of the Triune God.

But Jesus told us how the Father wants us to honor Him by.

Jesus told us that the glory of God was in His Son.

Paul told us that the name of the Son Whom died for us is the name above every other name to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus told us what a false witness is and what a true witness is.

Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit is sent to glorify the Son through us.

So worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son runs against scripture in how the Father wants us to come to Him to honor Him by.

P.S. Incidentally, Santha had helped me earlier in figuring out the tagging thing. I forgot to give full credit to him as I could not figure out why it was not working.

Again, you are creating your doctrine from context specific teaching, and not considering that God is God, and worshipping the Father and Son is worship of the Spirit as well.

I am guessing you are anti-Trinitarian?

It is easy to ask questions that demand a negative response in order to support a view. Here is one: Christ never bathed during His earthly ministry, apart from His baptism. This is irrefutable Bible fact and you will find no verse in Scripture that shows the Lord bathing.

Now, Who is speaking here:


Revelation 2

King James Version (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Who was it that spoke to the Children of Israel in the Wilderness?


Hebrews 3:7-11

King James Version (KJV)


7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)


Does the Old Testament say that the Spirit of God spoke to them?

No, we are told that God spoke to them, and that is equivalent to the Spirit of God speaking to them.

I have presented a number of passages which verify that the Spirit of God is God. I have shown you that we are indwelt by the Spirit, Father, and Son. I have told you that the Ministry of the Comforter is specific to a New Testament Ministry which has a context of conviction, and deals with men being saved.

Yet you do not show how what I have said is not consistent with the Scripture presented.

This would be similar to saying Christ is not God. The Spirit of God is God. When you worship The Father and Son you are worshipping the Spirit.

Now, I can do the same thing in regards to Christ, and post Scripture where it is commanded to worship God only. Christ said this. Does that mean we should refrain from worshipping Christ?

Just address the above Scripture and tell me why I am wrong. Answering a question with a question is not an answer, Hark.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Again, you are creating your doctrine from context specific teaching, and not considering that God is God, and worshipping the Father and Son is worship of the Spirit as well.

John 5:23 is pretty clear that when we are not honoring the Son, we are not honoring the Father. When that follows after he that honors the Son, honor the Father that sent Him, that pretty much means honoring the Son is the only way to honor the Father in anything.

I am guessing you are anti-Trinitarian?

Nope. Just recognizing what has been plainly taught in scripture and why problems are arising when people worship not only the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but when they just focus on the Holy Spirit in worship too, and that is when seducing spirits come with signs and lying wonders, misleading many believers into thinking that was the Holy Spirit.

If we fail to recognize the role of the Holy Spirit as explained in scripture, we would never realize that it is seducing spirits grabbing the spotlight for themselves, masquerading as the Holy Spirit in worship whereas the real indwelling Holy Spirit would keep that spotlight on the Son in worship.

It is easy to ask questions that demand a negative response in order to support a view. Here is one: Christ never bathed during His earthly ministry, apart from His baptism. This is irrefutable Bible fact and you will find no verse in Scripture that shows the Lord bathing.

Now, Who is speaking here:


Revelation 2

King James Version (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Who was it that spoke to the Children of Israel in the Wilderness?


Hebrews 3:7-11

King James Version (KJV)


7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)


Does the Old Testament say that the Spirit of God spoke to them?

No, we are told that God spoke to them, and that is equivalent to the Spirit of God speaking to them.

I have presented a number of passages which verify that the Spirit of God is God. I have shown you that we are indwelt by the Spirit, Father, and Son. I have told you that the Ministry of the Comforter is specific to a New Testament Ministry which has a context of conviction, and deals with men being saved.

Yet you do not show how what I have said is not consistent with the Scripture presented.

This would be similar to saying Christ is not God. The Spirit of God is God. When you worship The Father and Son you are worshipping the Spirit.

Now, I can do the same thing in regards to Christ, and post Scripture where it is commanded to worship God only. Christ said this. Does that mean we should refrain from worshipping Christ?

Just address the above Scripture and tell me why I am wrong. Answering a question with a question is not an answer, Hark.


God bless.

There is no denying the Triune God, but there is no denying how the Holy Spirit will lead believers in testifying of the Son even in worship in order for the Holy Spirit to glorify the Son and that is through us.

 

[Darrell C]

John 5:23 is pretty clear that when we are not honoring the Son, we are not honoring the Father. When that follows after he that honors the Son, honor the Father that sent Him, that pretty much means honoring the Son is the only way to honor the Father in anything.



Nope. Just recognizing what has been plainly taught in scripture and why problems are arising when people worship not only the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but when they just focus on the Holy Spirit in worship too, and that is when seducing spirits come with signs and lying wonders, misleading many believers into thinking that was the Holy Spirit.

If we fail to recognize the role of the Holy Spirit as explained in scripture, we would never realize that it is seducing spirits grabbing the spotlight for themselves, masquerading as the Holy Spirit in worship whereas the real indwelling Holy Spirit would keep that spotlight on the Son in worship.



There is no denying the Triune God, but there is no denying how the Holy Spirit will lead believers in testifying of the Son even in worship in order for the Holy Spirit to glorify the Son and that is through us.

Hark, if your mind is made up that you are not to worship the Holy Spirit, okay.

I do not think God is going to mind.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

If we fail to recognize the role of the Holy Spirit as explained in scripture

Forget the "role" for a moment and explain the Person, if you don't mind.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Hark, if your mind is made up that you are not to worship the Holy Spirit, okay.

I do not think God is going to mind.

You can't go wrong when scripture and the Holy Spirit is leading you to honor the Father by honoring & glorifying the Son.

But plenty can go wrong when the way to coming to God the Father in worship is by denying the commandment of His invitation that the Son is the only way any believer can COME to the Father by in worship. John 14:6

Why else is this ( Luke 13:24 ) the solution to avoiding this ( Matthew 7:13-14 )?

 

[Hark]

Forget the "role" for a moment and explain the Person, if you don't mind.

God bless.

The Holy Spirit is God of the Triune God that is a Witness sent by God to serve as a Witness through us in glorifying the Son in all things so that the Father is glorified when the Son is glorified,