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What are your thoughts on Jesus quoting "Ye are gods" ?
- Thread starter TomLaPalm
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Both are very revealing passages.
The passage in Psalms 82 uses the word ELOHIM in a number of different ways.
In verse 6 the word is used again.
YHWH is speaking to spiritual being in the heavenly realm.
YHWH is an ELOHIM.
YHWH holds council among the assembly of ELOHIM.
He is the preeminent ELOHIM, the God of ELOHIM (Psalm 136:2), Elyon (the Most High).
>>>John 10:30. “I and the Father are one.” Here Jesus identifies with YHWH and the Jews react. <<<
Jesus doesn’t call the Jewish leaders ELOHIM. If he was, his argument would be that the Law calls you ELOHIM, so I can call myself ELOHIM. It’s a weak argument that doesn’t promote Jesus’ message in any way.
No, Jesus is saying that he is a divine being, set apart as the Father’s own, and sent from above into the world.
Read "Jesus’ Quotation of Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34: A Different View of John‘s Theological Strategy" [LINK]
Rob
The passage in Psalms 82 uses the word ELOHIM in a number of different ways.
Psalm 82:1 - ELOHIM is standing in the divine council, in the midst of the ELOHIM he pronounces judgment:
In verse 6 the word is used again.
Psalm 82:6 - Indeed I said: “You are ELOHIM, and sons of Elyon are you all!”
YHWH is speaking to spiritual being in the heavenly realm.
YHWH is an ELOHIM.
YHWH holds council among the assembly of ELOHIM.
He is the preeminent ELOHIM, the God of ELOHIM (Psalm 136:2), Elyon (the Most High).
Exodus 15:11 Who among the ELOHIM is like you, Lord? Who is like you— majestic in holiness, awesome in glory, working wonders?
>>>John 10:30. “I and the Father are one.” Here Jesus identifies with YHWH and the Jews react. <<<
Jesus doesn’t call the Jewish leaders ELOHIM. If he was, his argument would be that the Law calls you ELOHIM, so I can call myself ELOHIM. It’s a weak argument that doesn’t promote Jesus’ message in any way.
No, Jesus is saying that he is a divine being, set apart as the Father’s own, and sent from above into the world.
Read "Jesus’ Quotation of Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34: A Different View of John‘s Theological Strategy" [LINK]
Rob
sure He is saying He is a elohyim, but He is doing by including Himself with "them" as is explained in v35.
additionally it is plural in Psalms as well
so He is saying, Why do you want to kill me for saying I am God , scripture says "ye are gods" or you are gods, since speaking directly to the Jewish rulers.
Psalms adds "ye shall die like men"
any thoughts?
Yes, the non secular judges appointed to make spiritual judgement were given this term and rightly so. But the Jews who were trying to kill Jesus WERE self righteous rulers , and they wanted to kill him even more after He quoted this verse, so clearly they did not agree with this usage . Do you think the creator misunderstood the conversation?
Psalms has the term being spoken in Heaven to the inhabitants that will die like(as perhaps as) men and fall as one of the princes. Not human judges.
If you are considering, brother, that God misunderstood Scripture then you have a serious misshapen view not only of inspiration but of God. Scripture reveals God, and this is no exception (it is, in fact, a stark revelation). So if you’re pondering whether God has misunderstood then please rest assured that the misunderstanding rests squarely in your court.
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The point of John 10:34 is that the truth of Jesus’ claims was substantiated by the Scripture of the Jews themselves. Jesus defends his statement by quoting Psalm 82:6 – ‘I said, “You are ‘gods’; you are all sons of the Most High, all of you; never the less, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.” (or, “fall as one man, O princes”).
Jesus uses the passage to prove that the word ‘god’ is used to refer to others than God himself. What your comments seem to be missing is Jesus’ point. If those other than God can be referred to as ‘gods’ and it not be blasphemy then how much more is it appropriate for the One whom God sanctified and sent to refer to himself as the Son of God. The logic is there regardless as to the identity of those who God has appointed to rule over those men in Psalm 82.
I know of at least four interpretations of Psalm 82. That the psalm speaks of angelic beings is in my view the worst interpretation. It would (like Hebrews) emphasize Christ’s superiority over angelic beings, but it does more damage than good. Angelic beings do not “die like men”. The Word of God came to men (specifically, Israel), not angels. And of course, given the context of Psalm 82, the angels God would be calling ‘gods’ would be unjust (demons). It is a poor interpretation.
The one I suggest is that the quote carries along with it the entire Psalm, and v. 8 is understood to be a prophecy fulfilled in the ministry of Christ. God is speaking to Israel at the giving of the Law. The curse that fell on Israel was in consequence of their idolatry. The Word of God came to Israel at Sinai, but Israel’s rebellion led to the death of that entire generation. Israel is called ‘gods’ as recipients of the Word of God.
The second reasonable interpretation is that this is referring to the judges appointed by God over Israel. Here they would be called ‘gods’ because of their appointment. But here the emphasis of the Word of God coming to them would not form a strong support.
Jesus uses the passage to prove that the word ‘god’ is used to refer to others than God himself. What your comments seem to be missing is Jesus’ point. If those other than God can be referred to as ‘gods’ and it not be blasphemy then how much more is it appropriate for the One whom God sanctified and sent to refer to himself as the Son of God. The logic is there regardless as to the identity of those who God has appointed to rule over those men in Psalm 82.
I know of at least four interpretations of Psalm 82. That the psalm speaks of angelic beings is in my view the worst interpretation. It would (like Hebrews) emphasize Christ’s superiority over angelic beings, but it does more damage than good. Angelic beings do not “die like men”. The Word of God came to men (specifically, Israel), not angels. And of course, given the context of Psalm 82, the angels God would be calling ‘gods’ would be unjust (demons). It is a poor interpretation.
The one I suggest is that the quote carries along with it the entire Psalm, and v. 8 is understood to be a prophecy fulfilled in the ministry of Christ. God is speaking to Israel at the giving of the Law. The curse that fell on Israel was in consequence of their idolatry. The Word of God came to Israel at Sinai, but Israel’s rebellion led to the death of that entire generation. Israel is called ‘gods’ as recipients of the Word of God.
The second reasonable interpretation is that this is referring to the judges appointed by God over Israel. Here they would be called ‘gods’ because of their appointment. But here the emphasis of the Word of God coming to them would not form a strong support.
I take the position that in view is a statement meant to say the opposite of what some try to make it mean (that men are gods or can become gods).
The Psalm is a reference to the temporal realm and the position of "god" refers to their rank among men. But God makes it clear that they will die like men, despite their rank. Or in other words, it levels the playing field from a view that these 'gods' need to be reminded they too are men, and not God, and not gods.
God bless.
It was a question, not a statement. It is not my position. But if one thinks this is "rulers" they are also stating that Jesus did not follow the conversation nor knew the Jews wanted to kill Him, both are contradicted by scripture.
The Psalm says God is speaking to the Heavenly Host....
The verse clearly says "ye are gods (elohyim) and "will die like men" . how can you suggest it is not true?
The are two types of elohyim, those in the first estate and those who are fallen. (Remember we use the term "angels" which is actually the "occupation" of some of the elohyim
Psalms 82 , has no prophecy of Christ at all.
The use of "gods" as rulers is from one place when the Children of Israel was out of Egypt and the civil and religious courts judges were formed. God call the religious judges "gods" but not the civil judges to distinguish the importance and difference.
so your position is that God creates beings that sin, some He chooses to save, others He doesn't and at the same time accepts God is a righteous Judge with no favorites, which would be an insult.
Perhaps there is more than you accept in this matter.
Do you have a verse that shows "fallen angels " are not offered redemption?
I'll give that a shot:
Psalm 82
King James Version (KJV)
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
Can you tell me at what point, or in what Era Angels judged men, accepted wicked men, failed to defend the poor and fatherless, and failed to do justice among the afflicted and needy?
This is a judgment similar to the rich man's judgment. He was charged with a similar attitude.
God bless.
Matthew 25:41
King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Hell is already prepared for them.
God bless.
That is actually a reasonable argument, in my view. However, think we can allow for a little irony here, rather than Christ teaching that in view are actually gods. The context of Psalm 82 is clearly speaking about men, not angels. The Lord is simply being a bit sarcastic with the Jews.
God bless.
God standeth and judged "elohyim ", "elohyim" did these things , and "die like men" (literally muwth 'adam).
Are "elohyim" what we call " fallen angels".
The term is used in Gen during the temptation of Eve, "be as elohyim, knowing good and evil.
They came unto the daughters of men
in Job, elohyim called accountable to God and
Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Why did "elohyim" shout for joy at creation?
compare the "fallen angels" and fallen man, and compare the unfallen angels and redeemed mab for similiar use of terms
Then you have my apologies. I didn't know why you would have made the statement unless you had considered it a possibility (as neither of our interpretations hint at that conclusion).
I think that you may want to study the word “Elohim” and its usage. The world is used, of course, for God. But it is also used for false gods, angels, and human leaders (it is used about 250 times to speak of angels or pagan deities). But we also see it used to refer to Moses, Samuel, and by the KJV usage to judges (Ex. 21:622:8 and 22:9). Regardless, if Elohim can refer to anything less than God then the logic remains.
The conversation would be understood in any of the interpretations, and any would result in the Jews wanting to kill Jesus (it would still be magnifying Jesus over the unjust “gods.”
But Jesus is specifically quoting Psalms 82, and thus the usage there must be accept as His usage.
God was speaking to the "congregation" the residents of heaven v 1 and "children of the most high".
so the only once applied as "rulers " seems way off. however
Isa 41:23
Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
God chides the same bunch to do something "supernatural" ,
The powerless but formerly "supernatural" beings,, sounds like fallen elohyim
I agree the meanings are the same, but I disagree that Jesus is speaking of heavenly beings. Neither text (Psalms or John) necessitates that interpretation and I believe both texts (and Hebrew tradition) confirm a different interpretation. I do not believe the Jews would have believed "gods" to mean heavenly beings who judge poorly, but I do think all three (the Psalmist, Jesus, and the audience) would have understood those in question to be men (more specifically, Israel).
Sent from my TARDIS
Please include that the Father does not judge man,
Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Yet Psalms 82 says He judgeth "elohyim" and they shall die like men. They were not men in Heaven.
Thank you, Tom, for an interesting discussion. On this post I observe that you are blending context and forming a meaning by stringing John 10:34, Psalm 82 and John 5:22 together. Scripture defines scripture, but I would suggest that your argument may benefit from a more systematic method as it appears to me that you have come up with a conclusion and are grasping at any and all verses that may appear to support your conclusion.
John 5:22 offers neither support for your position nor defense against mine (and I do believe Psalm 82:8 to be Messianic). God has judged (the world is already condemned) and the Father has committed all judgment unto the Son. And you are right, Psalm 82 does not speak of “men in Heaven” (I’m not sure where you came up with the idea anyone was arguing that it did).
I believe a failing to the theory you offer is that Jesus characterizes those who are addressed in Psalm 82 as those “to whom the word of God came.” The audience in John 10 would interpret this to be all of Israel. The context of the psalm, I believe, hints at this to be leaders of Israel. In other words, Jesus’ comment to the Jews was not only a testimony of his superiority (he called them gods to whom the word of God came, how much more appropriate is it then to attribute that title to the one whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world…the Word himself) but it was also an indictment against them (they are the ones to whom the word of God came….and they are unjust). Also consider that God calls Israel his “firstborn son.”
the logic presented as this Psalms 82 judgeth in the congregation and you say this is about men, John 5 says the Father judgeth no man, therefore Psalms 82 is NOT about men. Follow?
The verse say those being spoken to "will die like men"
Therefore not about Israel, not Messianic.
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