Who is Sanctified in Hebrews 10:29?

[vooks]

And just a quick comment here: it does not say "Cast not away your salvation," but, is speaking about confidence.

And nobody said cast away salvation. Another silly strawman.
The confidence which has a great reward is your faith.

The irony here is that if salvation is our confidence, rather than the Biblical view that salvation is only through Christ, then, we create once more a paradox.

Strawman....it is your faith,Minot salvation.

Salvation is never, never, never, Vooks, taught to be a "reward." The very opposite is the the consistent teaching of Scripture, that salvation is bestowed on those who do not merit salvation.

You might say, well, see, it says reward.[/quote]

Salvation is BOTH and gift and a reward.

But consider what he is saying, Vooks, he is saying the exact opposite of what your doctrine teaches, making salvation a reward, quite opposite of what Paul teaches here. Salvation is not a reward for efforts we put forth, this would make God in debt to men, and that is not ever going to happen, because man is dependent on righteousness being imputed, and this through faith.


God bless.

@Darrell C,
I agree salvation is not the reward of the efforts...but do you consider your faith in Christ to be 'efforts'?

Is faith a work?
Remember before this thread we agreed that salvation takes cooperation of both man and God. God does something, we do something. Ours is to believe,and accept what He has done for us. I'm not sure whether this is considered an effort, a work or whatever.

So I want you @Darrell C,given you consider yourself saved, to explain to me in detail EXACTLY what you did to be saved.

Next,
Please walk me through what is CONFIDENCE in the subject scripture, the attendant GREAT REWARD, and the fate of the one who casts away their confidence

 

[vooks]

Where are your passages on Apostasy, Vooks. You are the loss of salvation teacher, surely you can support your own doctrine.


God bless.

John 15:1-6

 

[vooks]

@Darrell C,
Come to think of it, the eternal security debate is symptomatic of our respective views of salvation. You tend to Calvinism although you differ with them on some aspects. Calvinists are monergists; it is 100% God. The problem with this view is that eternal damnation is equally 100% God

You favor some synergism for this is the ONLY way hell fodder are liable for their fate. But yours is only as far as conversion is concerned. It takes God's offer and man's acceptance of the gift of salvation to save a man. On this point we are in agreement

But AFTER conversion, you revert back to monergism. Everything from here is 100% God, and this is why it is unfathomable for you that man can do anything that affects his eternity. He is 'perfected and sanctified forever once for all', 'sealed','born'.....

So to you, apostasy is NEVER a possibility for the saved. Because such is initiated by man, yet man can't meddle with nothing. Your definition of apostasy is governed by your OSAS faith.

Any scripture pointing to a believer abandoning their faith will be twisted and contorted beyond measure. You end up either insisting like Calvinists that the subject was never truly born again, or the falling off is temporal, and they would be restored in due time.

The sanctified man of Hebrews 10:29 scares you just as it scares Calvinists. Because he perishes eternally (fierce judgement and indignation) , yet you know very well only believers are sanctified. You'd rather play safe and live with the doctrinal error of mistaking him for Christ(false/erroneous doctrines are not as bad to you) than admit he is the man perishing, bringing down your semi-monergistic doctrine of salvation.

As I said elsewhere, eternal security , just like pre-trib rapture theories,is quite appealing. I did reject them because I hate them, but rather because I can't find scriptural support for either.

 

[vooks]

@Darrell C,
I want you to focus on your salvation.
Exactly what makes you so cocksure you can't abandon your faith?
What makes you certain that your faith is the real deal and it will last to the end?

Is it your fruit, or the 'inner witness of the Spirit', or your faith in God's Word?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

John 17:6, 19. "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word............And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.'
The Lord Jesus Christ sanctified Himself (set Himself apart) for the sake of those whom God has given Him. You might like to consider this in your discussion of Hebrews 10..

 

[vooks]

John 17:6, 19. "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word............And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.'
The Lord Jesus Christ sanctified Himself (set Himself apart) for the sake of those whom God has given Him. You might like to consider this in your discussion of Hebrews 10..

Hebrews 10:29 is clear, the subject was sanctified BY the blood of the covenant. The question is not whether Jesus was sanctified,,but whether he was sanctified by his own blood whatever that means.

Blood, wherever and whenever you find it serves one purpose; sanctifying the sinner. So if you think it served another purpose namely sanctifying the very sacrifice, the burden of proof is on you

 

[Darrell C]

John 15:1-6

So let's look at a few who did not abide:


John 16:28-32

King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


So if we make abiding in Christ to represent salvation (and it does), and failure to abide to mean those saved lose their salvation, then we must conclude the disciples were saved in John 15:1-6, then lost their salvation...then were saved again.

But another L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teaching) is going to complicate this for you...they can't be renewed to repentance!

So good job, Vooks, you have just proven none of the disciples were actually saved, lol.

Now, because we see that the disciples did not abide in Christ when we impose a meaning of remaining faithful, what is in view?

I will ask you one question on this passage and when you answer it we will proceed to the interpretation you have not understood yet, just as you have not been able to understand others because you lack the basic understanding essential to a correct interpretation.

Here is the question: what is the vine which is not the True Vine?

Salvation is in view here, and abiding in the True Vine is essential to salvation, so, what is not the true vine?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And nobody said cast away salvation. Another silly strawman.
The confidence which has a great reward is your faith.

No straw man, a paradox, as I said.

You impose a meaning of salvation into confidence. Did you not post the verse as a proof text salvation (not confidence) can be lost?

True,my ou can't be in and out,but you may be in and then you walk out. You can cast away your confidence
Hebrews 10:35 (KJV)
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward
What happens when you cast it away @Darrell C?

You imply that loss of salvation is the inevitable result of "casting away your confidence," and continue to affirm you view salvation as a reward for works.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Strawman....it is your faith,Minot salvation.

Why have you ignored the proof text offered to show you that Paul teaches explicitly that salvation is not a matter of reward? Salvation has rewards, but salvation itself is not a reward.

Here is the Scripture again:

Here is an example:



Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Here is another:



Romans 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


You might say, well, see, it says reward.

But consider what he is saying, Vooks, he is saying the exact opposite of what your doctrine teaches, making salvation a reward, quite opposite of what Paul teaches here. Salvation is not a reward for efforts we put forth, this would make God in debt to men, and that is not ever going to happen, because man is dependent on righteousness being imputed, and this through faith.

Address the Scripture, Vooks. You will not continue to maintain your works-based mentality if you simply acknowledge Scripture.

You waste quite a bit of time when you do not address the points offered you. If you want to be effective in ministry on public forums, you are going to need to have a little more discipline than you are now currently using.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Salvation is BOTH and gift and a reward.

Sorry, no...that is heresy, plain and simple.

What work will you do, Vooks, that makes God a debtor to you?

Of course, I understand you do not really understand what you are saying, and how that applies to the truth of Scripture, the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

@Darrell C,
I agree salvation is not the reward of the efforts...but do you consider your faith in Christ to be 'efforts'?

Here we see yet another example of you saying two opposite statements:

Salvation is BOTH and gift and a reward.

I agree salvation is not the reward of the efforts...

It's like I am speaking to two people, the Vooks that is beginning to understand, and the Vooks that wants to desperately cling to his own beliefs.

Make up your mind, Dr. Hyde, which is it. Both cannot be true.

And before you set yourself to try to prove how two opposing concepts can be identical...just address the Scripture already given you. That is just another element you will have to come to understand, which is the positive statement in Scripture which teaches men cannot save themselves through their own efforts, only Christ can do that.

And unless you think you hung on the Cross with the Son of God, and contributed to the payment for the penalty for your sin, then you are forced to actually embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and abandon the Gospel according to Vooks.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Is faith a work?
Remember before this thread we agreed that salvation takes cooperation of both man and God. God does something, we do something. Ours is to believe,and accept what He has done for us. I'm not sure whether this is considered an effort, a work or whatever.

Sorry, no, lol, we did not agree that "salvation takes cooperation of both man and God."

Again, you misunderstand what I have said, which is simply we do not divorce man's participation in salvation, because he is the subject of salvation.

Faith is not a work, which is clearly shown in this...



Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


If you say faith is a work, then you, again, nullify what is actually stated in Scripture.

And what causes you to miss the simple statement is indoctrination into the L.O.S.T.

His workmanship, Vooks, His workmanship.

So I want you @Darrell C,given you consider yourself saved, to explain to me in detail EXACTLY what you did to be saved.

That is very easy: when the Comforter enlightened my mind to the truth...I did not reject that truth and yielded unto God.

In detail: God showed me something I was not aware of, that I was a sinner, that I was headed for Hell, and that Christ was the Remedy.

Christ taught how this would begin at Pentecost in John 16:7-9.

But where you, and you Arminian brethren make the mistake is...to ascribe ability to men. I didn't have any ability to underrstand my condition, God showed me. I didn't have any ability to correct that condition, because first Christ died so that I might be forgiven, secondly God showed me I needed to be saved, and third, most importantly in our discussion for you to understand...

...I did not tread Christ underfoot, count the sanctifying blood of Christ unholy (which I would not have done anyway because I was not brought up under the Law, therefore we have to keep that in the context of Hebrews), and I did not do despite unto the Spirit of Grace, or, in other words, I did not reject the Ministry of the Comforter.

So nowhere in my salvation experience can I pat myself on the back and say, "Well done, my fine fellow, you have helped God to save you."

And that is what you are doing, in one sense becoming guilty, to a degree, of the very thing warned against in Hebrews. Can you really say "I am trusting Christ" when in fact...

...you don't? You are trusting yourself, Vooks, to keep yourself saved. You deny Scripture, because you do not believe you are kept by the power of God, and that your inheritance is as Peter teaches...


1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


You do not believe you are born again by the Resurrection of Christ, and even if you did...you fear He will take that away from you unless you are good enough.

As I said, stinks to be you. But, if you will simply give attention to what Scripture does say, you can progress above the inital faith you have, and your faith will grow...

...and grow...

...and grow.

I know.

Next,
Please walk me through what is CONFIDENCE in the subject scripture, the attendant GREAT REWARD, and the fate of the one who casts away their confidence

This is again exhortation not to forsake the assembling of the brethren. In view is persecution and tribulation, which is unique to a Hebrew audience because they grew up under the Law, as did their communities. For a first century Jew, embracing the New Covenant could mean excommunication and death.

And you do not keep that first century context intact, you see this only from a modern application which on many points causes you to misinterpret the Chapter as a whole.

I have on numerous occasions debated the modern concept given this:


Hebrews 10:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


I have never once heard the first Pastor or Preacher properly expound on this verse, instead, it is yanked out of it's context and used to teach faithful Church attendance.

Forgotten is the profound statements stated just prior to this verse, as well as those which follow. The Writer makes it clear that the blood of bulls and goats cannot make the comer thereunto perfect, that the believer is sanctified once, that as the Promise was given those who are sanctified are made perfect forever in regards to remission of sins, that there is no more sacrifice for those sanctified because it is complete when applied.

Pretty aggravating, lol.

But this is what happens when people try to build their soteriology from part of a passage neglecting contextual elements. This is what happens when they compound that error by neglecting positive statements.

Okay, have to get ready for work, might check back in afterwards, but not much time today.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

So let's look at a few who did not abide:
So if we make abiding in Christ to represent salvation (and it does), and failure to abide to mean those saved lose their salvation, then we must conclude the disciples were saved in John 15:1-6, then lost their salvation...then were saved again.

This is plain stuuupid. Stupidity on stilts
Because abiding does not mean being physically next to Jesus. There was not point at which the disciples were not abiding

But another L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teaching) is going to complicate this for you...they can't be renewed to repentance!

Building on the earlier stupidly,you arrive at this

So good job, Vooks, you have just proven none of the disciples were actually saved, lol.

And this

Now, because we see that the disciples did not abide in Christ when we impose a meaning of remaining faithful, what is in view?

Where is it that the disciples did not abide? Another strawman.

I will ask you one question on this passage and when you answer it we will proceed to the interpretation you have not understood yet, just as you have not been able to understand others because you lack the basic understanding essential to a correct interpretation.

Abide is hanging out with Christ? So when they left each other at night or when Jesus sent them to buy food they were not abiding?
Even a two year old satanist who has never read the passage before would see through this nonsensical interpretation

Here is the question: what is the vine which is not the True Vine?

The True Vine is Jesus.
I have never come across a 'not True Vine'

Salvation is in view here, and abiding in the True Vine is essential to salvation, so, what is not the true vine?


God bless.

Again, the 'not the True Vine' is a figment of your hallucination. I'm I supposed to help you with those?

I could if you asked nicely

 

[vooks]

No straw man, a paradox, as I said.

You impose a meaning of salvation into confidence. Did you not post the verse as a proof text salvation (not confidence) can be lost?

Confidence is not salvation, confidence is the faith that saves

You imply that loss of salvation is the inevitable result of "casting away your confidence," and continue to affirm you view salvation as a reward for works.


Continued...

Where have I said salvation is reward for works? That's satan's specialty; lies. Buy you are sanctified forever so it doesn't matter

I have said salvation is BOTH a reward and a gift

 

[Darrell C]

I have never come across a 'not True Vine'

Which is why you do not understand the True Vine. If there is a True Vine, there is a vine that is not true. What is it?

And that is asking nicely, and I'll even throw in a please.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Confidence is not salvation, confidence is the faith that saves

And that is the works-based mentality: we are saved if we have faith, and if we maintain that faith. If we lose that faith...we become unsaved.

Scripture doesn't teach a work of faith which work is effected by the one having faith. Christ generates faith.

Do you start a car with faith, or do you simply have faith the car will start. You don't get behind the wheel every time and say, "Gosh, I sure hope the car starts this time, even though it starts every time I turn the key and has never failed to start before."

The difference between the car and Christ is that we have Scripture as a basis for faith, and unlike cars, which can break down, Christ has never failed to keep His promises and provide a faulty salvation to people.

A paradox is created when we call not trusting Christ to do what He said He would do...faith.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Where have I said salvation is reward for works? That's satan's specialty; lies. Buy you are sanctified forever so it doesn't matter

I have said salvation is BOTH a reward and a gift

Again you are trying to make two opposites equate.

Either it is a reward, or it isn't. I have provided two passages which deny salvation is given as compensation for something we have done.

Salvation has rewards, but is not itself a reward, because we would then have to provide works to earn that reward.

I agree, that doctrine is satanic.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Building on the earlier stupidly,you arrive at this

And my hope is that you will see that this is what you do.

Did the disciples abide in Christ? We would have to forget that they all abandoned Him, according to His Word. We would have to forget that Peter denied he even knew Him. We would have to forget that Peter and several disciples went back to fishing for fish, rather than men.

When did the disciples return to ministry for Christ, Vooks?

To say they were "abiding in Christ" during the time Christ is taken, murdered, buried, Resurrected, and then returning to Heaven...

...certainly can't be taken out of Scripture...it has to be imposed into it.

And that is what most do. They fail to see that the disciples did not abide in Christ in the same understanding imposed into what "abiding" means. "Abiding in Christ" is taught to mean remaining faithful, and if one does not do that they lose their salvation.

And all it takes is to properly place a number of issues in their proper context to understand the Lord's teaching here.

So what is the vine which is not the True Vine. I'll give you a hint, Vooks, you can see Paul use this same imagery in Romans 11, which is, surprise surprise, another passage that the L.O.S.T. use to teach their doctrine.

Well, that kind of wresting does make people faithful in Church attendance, and it does help fill the tithing baskets...


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

John 17:6, 19. "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word............And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.'
The Lord Jesus Christ sanctified Himself (set Himself apart) for the sake of those whom God has given Him. You might like to consider this in your discussion of Hebrews 10..

Hebrews 10:29 is clear, the subject was sanctified BY the blood of the covenant. The question is not whether Jesus was sanctified,but whether he was sanctified by his own blood whatever that means.

Blood, wherever and whenever you find it serves one purpose; sanctifying the sinner. So if you think it served another purpose namely sanctifying the very sacrifice, the burden of proof is on you.

In Exodus 12, we learn that the Passover lamb was to be set apart (sanctified) on the 10th day of the month and sacrificed to God on the 14th day. in the same way, the Lord Jesus set Himself apart to be sacrificed as a propitiation to God. 'For this is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins' (Matt. 26:28). When He said this, He had not shed His blood, but He had sanctified Himself as the one true perfect sacrifice for all time to God.

 

[vooks]

@Darrell C,
You are an erstwhile debater and I look forward to your posts. I have a sudden assignment that entails a hectic schedule and limited access to Internet. If you don't find me around for the next few days, keep on posting. When I get back, I will respond to all of them God willing.

See you in a few days time

 

[Darrell C]

@Darrell C,
You are an erstwhile debater and I look forward to your posts. I have a sudden assignment that entails a hectic schedule and limited access to Internet. If you don't find me around for the next few days, keep on posting. When I get back, I will respond to all of them God willing.

See you in a few days time

Don't feel bad, I have been shirking my responsibilities and will have to get back to them in earnest myself, lol.

See you when you get back, Vooks.


God bless.