I am not dismissing reconcile, but if we use that term, the definition being a restoring a previous relationship, then we have to address the "previous" relationship.
What was it that now is being restored?
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What are your thoughts on Jesus quoting "Ye are gods" ?
- Thread starter TomLaPalm
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What was it that now is being restored?
Well, Paul says it was "us" in Romans, "the world" in Corinthians and "all things" in Colossians. I guess it's us, the world, and all things.
Sent from my TARDIS
Not what but when,, When did "us" or "the world" or "all things" have a previous relationship?
The sheep belonged to the Shepherd before it was lost and the Shepherd left the 99 to go find it.
The coin belong the mistress who lost it and rejoiced to find it.
The Prodigal was the son before he left, repented and returned " no longer worthy to be called a son".
When did I belong to God? When was I a child of God, then put in the flesh?
Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
The coin belong the mistress who lost it and rejoiced to find it.
The Prodigal was the son before he left, repented and returned " no longer worthy to be called a son".
When did I belong to God? When was I a child of God, then put in the flesh?
Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
While I agree with those passages, I somehow don't think Paul's point of saying that God through Christ was reconciling the world to Himself (or the depth of Col. 1) to be focused on a previous relationship. It appears to me that you are looking at the passage through your own agenda, looking backwards to prove a relationship existed. If you would allow the passages to speak for themselves you may find they look forward instead. All things in heaven and on earth are reconciled through Christ. Therefore we urge men to be reconciled to God.
Sent from my TARDIS
I believe that this is the definition of foreknowledge, that God "knew us" in a covenantal relationship before we knew Him (before the foundation of the earth).
Reconcile can mean to restore a relationship. But it also can mean to resolve differences. I wouldn't support a view that declares Paul in these verses to be speaking of a past relationship in terms of election (because that applies to the elect while Paul indicates a much broader reconciliation in Col. 1).
IMHO the implied past is that inherent Creator - creation relationship in accordance with God's own nature. Don't forget that creation itself has been subjected to futility in hope of being set free from corruption to the freedom of the glory of the children of God. We also groan along with creation itself, longing for the redemption of our body.
Sent from my TARDIS
Resolve differences and restore a previous relationship.
Redeem also suggests a previous ownership.
The relationship restored is that lost in Adam. Man was created to be in direct fellowship with God, that was lost, and now needs to be restored.
In regards to the parables, we need to consider the relationship between God and Israel. The "lost" sheep of Israel were in a state of destruction when Christ came. Also, many of the parables are distinct to Kingdom teachings, which again has a specific focal point on the relationship between God and Israel.
God bless.
Again, the restoration and reconciliation is tied to the Fall, not a previous salvific relationship.
Nor can we get into the thought that men pre-existed their births here, if that is where you are going with this.
God's "ownership" is not synonymous with a salvific relationship:
Deuteronomy 32
King James Version (KJV)
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
Exodus 15:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
God bless.
[QWe UOTE="Darrell C, post: 2213568, member: 9975"]Again, the restoration and reconciliation is tied to the Fall, not a previous salvific relationship.
Nor can we get into the thought that men pre-existed their births here, if that is where you are going with this.
God's "ownership" is not synonymous with a salvific relationship:
Deuteronomy 32
King James Version (KJV)
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
Exodus 15:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
God bless.[/QUOTE]
We know it is not tied to the fall because "things in heaven " are reconciled by the cross.
Heaven was not effected by the fall of Adam.
Nor can we get into the thought that men pre-existed their births here, if that is where you are going with this.
God's "ownership" is not synonymous with a salvific relationship:
Deuteronomy 32
King James Version (KJV)
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
Exodus 15:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
God bless.[/QUOTE]
We know it is not tied to the fall because "things in heaven " are reconciled by the cross.
Heaven was not effected by the fall of Adam.
That is correct: most of us view Heaven as having been impacted by sin prior to the Creation of this physical Universe and Man.
Hence, we shouldn't be surprised that we see the Cross as the fixed point in history and eternity where reconciliation is applied to all things:
Colossians 1:16 & 20
King James Version (KJV)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
In other words...when Paul states all things, he means all things. Nothing will be left in question. We won't see the demons and Satan any longer, because they will be in Hell.
So we cannot build a model that absolutely denies the presence of sin in Heaven, because that is the assumed location of Lucifer when he fell, and was cast out.
God bless.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1 --- Was that in need of reconciliation?
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.Gen 1:2 ---- Did that need to be reconciled?
For reconciliation to take place would someone need to be manifested, as one who could die, in order to destroy the one who caused need for reconciliation?
Heb 2:9 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Ps 8:4,5 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.Gen 1:2 ---- Did that need to be reconciled?
For reconciliation to take place would someone need to be manifested, as one who could die, in order to destroy the one who caused need for reconciliation?
Heb 2:9 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Ps 8:4,5 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Heb 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Lost Man is lower than the angels in their natural state. but what about the redeemed?
Luk 20:36
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection
but what about the angels in the fallen state? are they equal to lost or fallen man?
On a tablet so I'll be brief: show me where reconciliation is seen in Colossians to refer to the presence of sin in Heaven.
God bless.
You are creating a concept of men becoming equal to Angels. That's not in view. It's speaking about characteristics of Angels, not tjhat men become Angels. I would also suggest that in view is speaking about the dead pre-resurrection. Those He speaks about have died and are dying, rather than an outlook to the future. No-one has been resurrected yet. At this point not even Christ has been.
Hence trying to use this to make men Angels isn't going to work.
Why don't you just speak plainly what you want to say Tom.
God bless.
Because you are not ready yet
yes it was , saying there is no marriage in Heaven no procreation in necessary, God has created all . Man was formed. All Souls are created
the greek is actually isoaggellos iso i s equal in quantity or quality
quantity is probably out so equal in quality
Why do men get to judge angels?
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