Sola Scriptura: week-day-1 vs Bible Sabbath

[BobRyan]

Many on this board have demonstrated that they can have a sola scriptura discussion and do not limit themselves to "sola ad hominem" or "sola name-calling"... And that is an important fact for all to agree upon as this thread will proceed "sola scriptura" regardless of anyone's preference or bias on the subject.

The model will be "scripture please".
================================

DHK said: ↑
IF (and we are not) commanded to commemorate any day of the week it would be the first day of the week, the day that Christ rose from the dead.

Let's evaluate that claim "sola scriptura" --

1. There is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)

2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.

3. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says "they met week-day-1 after week-day-1 " for anything - but we DO have that in Acts 13 and Acts 17 regarding Sabbath for both Jews AND Gentiles.

4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.

5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28.

6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.

7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.

8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.


============================= btw -

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

 

[BobRyan]

Now to be fair -

There are TWO pro-Sunday arguments. One is hinted at in the article posted on this board recently from R.C. Sproul's group. And is also in harmony with what you find in the "Baptist Confession of Faith" (Section 19) and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" (also section 19). D.L. Moody, C.H. Spurgeon and others strongly affirmed this particular pro-TEN Commandments view in his own promotion of Sunday. They make 7 points on the subject of the TEN Commandments and I agree with most of them -- 6 out of the 7. This group includes Sproul, C.H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, D.L. Moody etc.

The "OTHER" pro-sunday group - simply condemns all the Ten Commandments or alternately condemns at least one of them.

As for the "conflict" between the two groups - as Andy Stanley said in his own "Ten Commandment sermon" when speaking of the third commandment -- not to take God's name in vain -- ONE form of taking God's name in vain is to claim that "God told you NOT to keep one of the TEN Commandments".


Comparing those TWO - pro-Sunday groups and contrasting them can be done in 7 easy statements.

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.

Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.

The first pro-sunday group - the D.L. Moody, Sproul, C.H. Spurgeon... "Baptist Confession of Faith" the "Westminster Confession of Faith" etc - have this as their platform.

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.


The second pro-Sunday group -- would object to all 7 points in that list.

==========================================

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - so then I do not agree with point 7.

 

[BobRyan]

On this board - our friend Herbert might be in a 'third group' - for promoting Sunday.

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=====================================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

As they point out - this is the "ultimate test" for just how firmly the doctrine of "sola scriptura" is adopted.

 

[BobRyan]

As another example of a sermon that has been published representing the first group of pro-sunday Bible teachers - we have this from D.L. Moody.


http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

======================================================================

In that example his affirmation of all 7 points can be seen -- as one might expect from a Bible teacher in that first pro-sunday group.

 

[BobRyan]

So then the question to be addressed by this thread - is how does this fit with the idea of "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine? The OP shows clearly the Bible case for which day is said by the Bible "to be holy" or 'The Holy Day of the Lord" or the day on which "all mankind" for all eternity will come before God and worship.

So then what then about 'other ideas' for a day of worship?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

BobRyan -

Do you believe the doctrine of the Trinity?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Do you believe the doctrine of the Trinity?

Why do you ask this?

You should ask Bob Ryan the only question relevant to his article,

Do you believe Christ's Resurrection?!

Or you may ask him the same question, put another way,

Do you believe the REASON throughout the Scriptures that God gave for his Sabbath's-rest?

SDA reject it. And what's more important, SDA reject it the same as Sunday keepers.

But what's most important and you should ask Bob Ryan this, is, Why does he not believe his SDA prophetess EGWhite who commanded unequivocally SUNDAY SHOULD BE REMEMBERED ON EARTH AS IN HEAVEN FOREVER, FOR JESUS HAVING RAISED FROM THE DEAD ON IT.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan -

Do you believe the doctrine of the Trinity?

Yes - is it your claim that the Trinity can not be defended "sola scriptura"?? Is that your point given the sola scriptura focus in the OP?

When debating the Trinity doctrine with JWs -- they are all about claiming that we cannot know or define this doctrine apart from the RCC traditions. Turns out - it is in the Bible, starting with texts such as Matthew 28.

 

[BobRyan]

You should ask Bob Ryan the only question relevant to his article,

Do you believe Christ's Resurrection?!

I do - Christ was born once ... died once... resurrected once... not "weekly".

There is no "7 day cycle" to Christ's resurrection in the actual Bible.

But God gave us explicitly the 7 day week for the creation Sabbath in the actual Bible.

if the argument is that man-made tradition has given us a few other things beside - I would not doubt that.

 

[BobRyan]

EGWhite who commanded unequivocally SUNDAY SHOULD BE REMEMBERED ON EARTH AS IN HEAVEN FOREVER, FOR JESUS HAVING RAISED FROM THE DEAD ON IT.

Just not in "real life"???

In any case -- people who wish to remember Thursday as the night of the Lord's Supper "do this in rememberance of Me...", "for as often as you do this you do show the Lord's death until He comes", or Sabbath when He rested, or Sunday when he was raised from the dead... are free to choose whatever man-made tradition they wish.

But as even Andy Stanley points out - to ALSO claim that God told you "not to keep one of the TEN Commandments" is wrong.

 

[utilyan]

The biggest blunder of those insisting keeping the Sabbath, is they never get around telling you how it is done.


Exodus 31

12The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 13“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. 14‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. 16‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’ 17“It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”


Sign applied between God and Israel. Not the world.

The gentile proselytes who converted to Judaism were not required to keep Sabbath. And if they tried being uncircumcised the penalty on it was death.


Please I'd like to hear a story when you stoned to death someone in your religion for not observing the Sabbath because they decided to do work.



Everything about Colossian 2 is about how the Sabbath is kept through Jesus Christ.

20If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”


Or like Hebrews 4
If there was nothing new happening concerning the Sabbath days why bring up the subject at all?

Nothing on the subject would have been the best defense.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Yes - is it your claim that the Trinity can not be defended "sola scriptura"?? Is that your point given the sola scriptura focus in the OP?

When debating the Trinity doctrine with JWs -- they are all about claiming that we cannot know or define this doctrine apart from the RCC traditions. Turns out - it is in the Bible, starting with texts such as Matthew 28.

I figured you did believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. I am not claiming that this doctrine cannot be defended Sola Scriptura, but rather that your OP sets up a criteria (calling it Sola Scriptura) that could not be used to defend the doctrine of the Trinity.

The OP, seems to me, to take a particular subject and attempts to lay open a weakness in the Protestant and Reformed position of Sola Scriptura. There are several aspects of this idea which perhaps we should enumerate. However, one aspect that is very certain to all is that the doctrine/teaching is that Scripture Alone is sufficient. The Papal position impugns this idea and adds to the authority of Scripture its own authority. And I believe that whenever men add to Scripture, they subtract. Which is clearly the case with RCC.

A very good statement that is agreeable to all Protestant and Reformed believers is as follows:

1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31;Ephesians 2:20;Romans 1:19-21;Romans 2:14,15;Psalms 19:1-3;Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4;2 Peter 1:19,20 )

This is chapter 1 of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith which is basically the same as the Westminster Confession. The Papal claim would add to this its own self and even go as far to lay infallibility upon a man they call Pope.

So, the OP claims that the Christian Sabbath cannot be established on the principle of Sola Scriptura. I suggest that the OP misses the mark on even what the principle is. And I would say that the Scriptures are wholly sufficient to establish both the doctrine and practice of the Lord's Day.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There is no "7 day cycle" to Christ's resurrection in the actual Bible.

Nor is there a "~7 day cycle" to God's creation in the actual Bible.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I do - Christ was born once ... died once... resurrected once... not "weekly".

Lying that I claimed Christ rises "~weekly~" --- shameless SDA!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

God gave us explicitly the 7 day week for the creation Sabbath in the actual Bible.

Rubbish.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

if the argument is that man-made tradition has given us a few other things beside - I would not doubt that.

You admit EGW is "~man-made tradition~" ... which the whole world had long before her, and which she sheepishly obliged.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Just not in "real life"???

That's what she meant and wrote ... "~in real life~"! Put your question marks after what your prophetess ordered you to observe.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

people who wish to remember ... Sabbath when He rested, ... are free to choose whatever man-made tradition they wish.

... Sunday when he was raised from the dead... are free to choose whatever man-made tradition they wish.

Lie ... "~Sunday when he was raised from the dead~";
"~man-made tradition~" yes! What _you_ wish indeed.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But as even Andy Stanley points out - to ALSO claim that God told you "not to keep one of the TEN Commandments" is wrong.

So? the egg- stock market. I don't gamble.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The biggest blunder of those insisting keeping the Sabbath, is they never get around telling you how it is done.

They never tell you how God kept the Sabbath! That's their biggest foefie. Same as the Sundayers'.