Jesus was completely content to submit His will to the will of the Father....in all things.
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About Hebrews' warning: Do not draw back to perdition
- Thread starter Browner
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Yes. And anytime we do anything of our own nonsubmissive will it is done freely against God. That's simply something some refuse to see.
Another name for that would be....SIN
Hebrews 3:12-15 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
Browner's error is that he reads the passage to say that we have become partakers of Christ, so we should hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. But the passage actually reads "For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."
Browner's error is that he reads the passage to say that we have become partakers of Christ, so we should hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end. But the passage actually reads "For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."
dad1
Member
Was Peter saved? He denied Jesus 3 times. How about we stop judging? If people ask in sincerity to be saved then saved they are. If they really blow it God might let them die in some cases, but their spirits will live. In many cases we fall, and learn stuff, and even face judgments from God. Great! His judgments are better than gold! What is this business of some little holy men running around trying to say people are really not saved if they don't do this and that and the other??
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Peter's latter repentance proved his conversion to be true. I'll just dismiss your diatribe on making caricatures of ministers of God who watch over our souls and beg us examine ourselves.
OK, now, can you answer my question?
"Do you believe that once a person 'asks' to be saved that they can then deny all the gospel truths, Christ, and His teachings, and are still 'heaven bound'?
Instead of appealing to emotion, can you answer the above with the Word? How about 2 John for instance. You may wish to try 1 John as well, as it compares the false with the true.
Okay, I got only as far as point 1.
I can show you several NT verses, which teach:
those who are "in Christ" are the faithful enduring ones,
not every Tommy, Dickie, and Harry ...
who at one point in time received the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Yes, the NT teaches us (hopefully!) that ...
believers MUST exercise their free-will to become:
slaves of obedience and slaves of righteousness
unto holiness unto eternal life!
dad1
Member
Not sure who you are alluding is watching over our souls? Men of cloth in the mostly apostate churches? Nothing needs to prove the salvation which is the gift of God true! Jesus proved it true! Appearances can be deceiving. Yes good works follow when we are saved, but as Paul pointed out at least in a few stinkers, it did not follow much at all, and he said they would have to be killed to be saved, basically. Bodies die so that the spirit would live. God is working on us as He was on Peter, and the last thing anyone needs is some would be holy man or woman condemning them, because they seem to have less than total victory yet. God is the One working inside. I am tired of folks like you insinuating it is by works, and that if the works don't seem up to your standards, people were never really saved. Baloney. We will let Jesus judge that. His gift is not on again off again. The supposed eternal security some peddle is really eternal insecurity. 'Oh, if sister Wanda still smokes, and hasn't got a legal divorce yet (or insert any sin you like here) then she never was saved...blah blah.
Yes. I have seen some fall even that far! Yet in the end God usually works in their life and they learn from the experiences. Now maybe in some cases some on really never had their heart right, and some con game was being played, that is not my place to judge! Maybe God will even get them! Then there are these outwardly clean preachers that inwardly are hypocrites...that's another story....
There are oodles of verses about the gift of God being forever, and without repentance, and about His mercy and judgments etc. All He asks to start is that we come to Him, and sincerely ask for His free eternal gift. There is no guarantee that I know about we will all suddenly become sinless saints and wholly sanctified. Yes we can work on it. But remember the guy who fell seven times a day? That doesn't seem to indicate perfection. How about where Jesus said to forgive seventy times seven times? Why would a brother need that if we all were so spotless as some Calvinists seem to think we need to be? It is easy to point fingers, and catch some sinners that are saved living a less than some sinless sanctified life. Yes, many even fall. But though they fall they are not forsaken..ever! They will rise again! We just need to thank Jesus for His great mercy and gift, and realize we will never be perfect in this life! Peter denied for hours. Others may deny for years! We are woks of His in progress, not people that work up to some higher level of piousness.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Yep, as figured ad hominen and nary a Scripture.
These are some points from a former Pastor that I picked up:
10 Positive Approaches to Eternal Security
1. Positional Application—We become in Christ at Salvation (Romans 8:38 & 39)
2. God’s Hand Approach—we are placed in God’s hand and can never be plucked from it (John 10:28&29; Psalm 37:24 & 28)
3. Greek Tense of Words—This is because of
a. Perfect Tense (Ephesians 2:8) Action of the verb is completed but results Continue.
b. Aorist Tense (Acts 16:31) Action of the verb presently in progress.
4. Family Approach—we (believers) have become sons of God (John 1:12) and His children (Galatians 3:26).
5. Title Deed Approach—The Holy Spirit is our guarantee (Ephesians 1:14). Christ is our Title Deed (1 John 5:11-13).
6. Body Approach—We as Believers are said to be part of the body 0f Christ (1 Corinthians 12:12-14, 27). Christ is the Head of the body (Colossians 1:18).
7. Hypothetical Approach—If we are dead, hypothetically we died with Christ (2 Timothy 2:11-12).
8. Sealing Ministry of the Holy Spirit Approach—Because of the sealing of the Holy Spirit as our earnest we are assured of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22).
9. Logical Approach or “The Much More Approach”—has freely given us all things (Romans 8:32).
10. Eternal Life approach—“He imparted to all who believe in Him, His Life (John 10:28).
dad1
Member
To recap then, I used allusions to many scriptures. I tend to assume bible savvy folks would know that.
Since you have nothing to retort, let this be a warning shot to apostate church folks who think they can say that the salvation Jesus gives and died for depends on works.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
More ad hominem nonsense, and again, not one Scripture. Why resort to this? The reason is because you are losing your argument.
Part of the problem is that you cannot distinguish between evidence of salvation and works, so you call me, and others who can distinguish this as 'apostate'.
I will point you to the epistle of 2 John as proof to my assertions and former question to you concerning those who deny the teachings of Christ and etc. What does this epistle conclude?
Also, I will give to you the epistle of 1 John and take special note of 1 John 2:19. This epistle is filled with teachings that there is evidence of salvation and that these evidences are seen and are good works.
As far as your false accusation of depending on works for salvation you are amiss. Not one sheep believes this as all His sheep know He alone has saved them. Yet, at the same time, we know this, that if there are no works there is no salvation; John 10:27, James 2:17, Hebrews 12:14.
dad1
Member
No, I cannot lose.
The evidence of salvation is not needed to know we are saved. That concept also is a tool that the religious establishment uses in some cases to keep people coming to church, for fear they may not really be saved if the stop..etc. God is the judge of whether we have accepted His gift. Now if some mom got saved, and stated to be a better mom, and have more love and start to learn things, we could have some preacher say she had no fruit. Maybe she got tired of the church and the baloney and didn't have time for it or something, so some hypocrite says she 'departed'.
You tell us.
Yeah, so who is to say who has love and patience and etc etc? You?
False. If you claim someone can never have been saved if the slip up, and have less than good works in your little books, then that is works.
Yet some preachers who claim to be sheep do claim that many are not 'really saved' and soon as some sheep fall, they bring out the accusations.
Yeah, I know. Yet when works do not seem to be there in the way some preachers or religious folks might like, they claim that the person was never saved. Theirs is a works trip.
Again, I got as far as point 1.
'Tis a very true statement.
But, the trick is to stay "in Christ".
Which is the opposite of "falling away", "drawing back",
and other similar disastrous free-will choices!
The Lord will NOT force you to make the correct choices!
Salvation is a life-long process of faithfulness and endurance.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
As to the eternal state of Judas we have this as well:
1) No thieves will enter the kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 6:10 (unless of course one dismisses this truth because it doesn't fit into their 'theological system', e.g. FGT, or any other theology that holds to the same errors though not labelled or named)
2) Judas? He was a practicing thief; John 12:6.
As we see above the revelation of the Word of God is what has judged Judas already. But of course, to at least one person, using Scripture in this sense makes others and myself apostate.
1) No thieves will enter the kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 6:10 (unless of course one dismisses this truth because it doesn't fit into their 'theological system', e.g. FGT, or any other theology that holds to the same errors though not labelled or named)
2) Judas? He was a practicing thief; John 12:6.
As we see above the revelation of the Word of God is what has judged Judas already. But of course, to at least one person, using Scripture in this sense makes others and myself apostate.
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone pluck them out of my hand.
Your life is either eternal, in Christ, or temporal, in the flesh. There is no middle ground. If you can lose it, it is not eternal.
If you have given your life to Christ you no longer have it, He has it, and you can't lose what you don't have.
If you can lose it, He does not have it, you do, and that is sad.
dad1
Member
No. He stays in us whatever we do! He is not a liar. He is faithful though we are not. Being faithful and doing works for us goes toward rewards, not salvation.
Again, you have chosen to leave out v.27 ...
John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
I have told you before ...
these believers are God's special elect who:
1) hear Jesus' voice
2) have a knowing relationship with Jesus
3) follow Jesus
Quite an exclusive group of believers!
Yes, these are the "approved" ones of:
Matthew 7:23
And then I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you (Vine: approved of you);
depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
If God knows (and/or says) that Jerry is saved,
it is because He knows the outcome of his life.
Because salvation is a life-long process!
So, all of the warnings are only for God's elect
... to keep them on the straight and narrow.
Because only God's elect actually heed the warnings
and live an approved life before the Lord.
it is because He knows the outcome of his life.
Because salvation is a life-long process!
So, all of the warnings are only for God's elect
... to keep them on the straight and narrow.
Because only God's elect actually heed the warnings
and live an approved life before the Lord.
Psalm 23:3. 'He restores my soul. He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake.'
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