Soteriologyish

[TCassidy]

Reading God's word is useless in itself.
The Holy Spirit MUST reveal its' meaning.
Non-believers have NO idea of the spiritual aspects of Scripture.
Believers who have the indwelling Spirit have a good chance
of being led into "all truth" (John, 1 John).
But, their chances greatly diminish, if they are CLOSED
to receiving spiritual Truth because of whatever reason(s).

Yes, I agree. When their mind is closed to the truth of God's word, that the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge have passed away and their experience is more important to them than God's word, then they will not receive from God that which He wants them to have. Their mind and heart are closed to His leading.

 

[revmwc]

You are missing the fact that for some the bible is trumped by a continuing narrative (God is giving him deeper truths to clarify some passages and nullify others). It's fun to discuss, only know that those subjected to God's Word cannot help but talk past those who are "enlightened" beyond such archaic literature.

Interpretation is not prophecy! Prophecy is new declaration of something God reveals and a prophet must be proven. He must prove his Long term prophecy by the short term prophecy first coming to pass. We have no true prophets in our time not one.

 

[JonC]

1 Corinthians 13:9 ἐκ μέρους γὰρ γινώσκομεν καὶ ἐκ μέρους προφητεύομεν·
10 ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τὸτε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται.

Literal translation: "For we have partial knowledge, and partial prophecy, but when the complete (understood "thing") comes, the partial (understood "thing") will pass away."

As you can see there is no noun identifying "thing" in this sentence. It is understood from the context.

The context is speaking of prophecies, tongues, and knowledge, according to verse 8.

What is the point of prophecy? To reveal future events (too many to list).

What is the point of tongues? To reveal the wonderful works of God (Acts 2:11).

What is the point of knowledge? To reveal those things that were hitherto unknown (too many to list).

So, what is the context speaking of? Revelation, of course.

So let's plug our understood subject, Revelation, into our verse.

"When the complete (understood "revelation") comes, the partial (understood "revelation") will pass away."

So, when God's complete revelation to man, the bible, is complete, the partial forms of revelation, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, being no longer necessary, will pass away.

Now the absolute proof the above is correct.

Look at verse 13. "But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love."

Paul says that even when he was penning the words to 1 Corinthians the miraculous revelatory sign gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge were no longer being given. Paul proves that by saying "But now faith hope and love remain -- these three."

Paul did not say, "But now tongues, prophecy, knowledge, faith, hope, and love remain -- these six. Nope. Only three remained at the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, faith, hope, and love. The rest were no longer being given and as those who already had the gifts grew older and passed away the gifts passed away with them. And it is no coincidence that, just as the last of those gifted first century saints were dying, John was also penning the "amen" to the last book of the bible, the Revelation. And when John died the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge died with him. Just as the bible says.

Browner, take some advice from a old man who cares for your soul. Get out of that heretical, apostate, church you are in and find a good, bible believing church where you can be correctly instructed in the things of God. I will be happy to make some recommendations if you are not sure where you can find or if you could identify a good bible believing church.

I agree with everything you have posted here except that this revelation was the Bible itself. So if it helps, you were almost all the way right Laugh.

 

[TCassidy]

Paul does not mention a time when they will cease

But he does. In fact he says they had already ceased to be given when Paul was writing First Corinthians. Look at chapter 13 verse 13. "But now (when Paul was writing) faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love."

He did not say, "But now tongues, prophecy, knowledge, faith, hope, and love remain—these six. The greatest of these is love."

Nope. Paul made the timing very clear. It had already happened that the gifts were no longer being given to new converts and as those already gifted aged and passed away the gifts passed away with them. QED

 

[JonC]

Interpretation is not prophecy! Prophecy is new declaration of something God reveals and a prophet must be proven. He must prove his Long term prophecy by the short term prophecy first coming to pass. We have no true prophets in our time not one.

My point is that prophecy did not "add to" the Word of God. If prophecy does exist today (and I'm not saying that it does not) then it is an unveiling of what has already been revealed. Those who prophesied were declaring truth...not Browner's "deeper truths" but actual truths of God. So I disagree that Scripture indicates God can never use prophecy (or even tongues to affirm that prophecy) after the completion of Revelation to communicate His Word. But if prophecy exists today (and I think it possibly could) then it would never be extra-biblical in content.

 

[revmwc]

My point is that prophecy did not "add to" the Word of God. If prophecy does exist today (and I'm not saying that it does not) then it is an unveiling of what has already been revealed. Those who prophesied were declaring truth...not Browner's "deeper truths" but actual truths of God. So I disagree that Scripture indicates God can never use prophecy (or even tongues to affirm that prophecy) after the completion of Revelation to communicate His Word. But if prophecy exists today (and I think it possibly could) then it would never be extra-biblical in content.

Then it is of no value to the church if it isn't conveyed to them, not just one local church but to all believers must hear new revelation (prophecy), and what book gives us God's entire plan?

 

[JonC]

But he does. In fact he says they had already ceased to be given when Paul was writing First Corinthians. Look at chapter 13 verse 13. "But now (when Paul was writing) faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love."

He did not say, "But now tongues, prophecy, knowledge, faith, hope, and love remain—these six. The greatest of these is love."

Nope. Paul made the timing very clear. It had already happened that the gifts were no longer being given to new converts and as those already gifted aged and passed away the gifts passed away with them. QED

But that does not mean the revelation is the completion of the canon or the authorship of Revelation. I disagree that Paul is saying that those three are the only ones that remain in terms of gifts given to the Church. Those three are, however, the ones in which the Church abides. Having been saved, tongues are no longer needed (they are a sign for the lost); having received the revelation of the Word of God, prophecy is no longer needed (it is received). But we will abide now (as benefactors of God's revelation..as the Church) in faith, hope, and love.

My disagreement is not that prophecy exists in the local church (it is not needed) or that tongues are spoken in the local church (they are not for the church) but that Paul is not saying that with the completion of Revelation these things cease. They cease when they are not needed.

 

[JonC]

Then it is of no value to the church if it isn't conveyed to them, not just one local church but to all believers must hear new revelation (prophecy), and what book gives us God's entire plan?

I agree. Prophesy is not a gift given to the local church as it is not needed because we have God's revelation. This does not mean people are not to proclaim that word and we are to judge their words by Scripture. But I don't think we disagree there.

We will never have God's entire plan. We don't need God's entire plan. But what has been revealed of God has been revealed in Scripture. The book would be the Bible.

 

[revmwc]

I agree. Prophesy is not a gift given to the local church as it is not needed because we have God's revelation. This does not mean people are not to proclaim that word and we are to judge their words by Scripture. But I don't think we disagree there.

We will never have God's entire plan. We don't need God's entire plan. But what has been revealed of God has been revealed in Scripture. The book would be the Bible.

Prophecy is new revelation.

 

[TCassidy]

So I disagree that Scripture indicates God can never use prophecy

The term can mean two very different things. One, as the term is used regarding the gift of foretelling, means to give new, as yet unknown, revelation, often regarding future events. The second is the forthtelling of that already given. It is what preachers do (or at least they ought to) today. We take what has already been given and "forthtell" or "tell forth" the word of God.

(or even tongues to affirm that prophecy) after the completion of Revelation to communicate His Word.

Nobody has said God can't do so. What we have said is that He won't because He said so. He said He was no longer giving the miraculous sign gifts. I think He meant it, and I also think He always keeps His word.

But if prophecy exists today (and I think it possibly could) then it would never be extra-biblical in content.

Forthtelling as opposed to foretelling.

 

[TCassidy]

They cease when they are not needed.

Yes. Like when the revelation was complete.

Sign gifts authenticated the giving of revelation.

When revelation ceased so did the authenticating sign gifts.

 

[JonC]

Prophecy is new revelation.

No, it is not.

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[JonC]

Yes. Like when the revelation was complete.

Sign gifts authenticated the giving of revelation.

When revelation ceased so did the authenticating sign gifts.

Sorry.....I was thinking Barth again [emoji14]

I think understanding the passage to mean the completion of the Bible to be reading into the text and the text itself more general in nature.

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[revmwc]

No, it is not.

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Definition of prophecy,
a. An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
b. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.

Seems it is by definition.

 

[JonC]

Definition of prophecy,
a. An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
b. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.

Seems it is by definition.

Only if you add "new" to your definition. That was the part I disagreed with (partly because the OT proves you wrong....and partly because the NT proves you wrong).

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[revmwc]

Only if you add "new" to your definition. That was the part I disagreed with (partly because the OT proves you wrong....and partly because the NT proves you wrong).

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So you know a prophet one who predicts something short term and has it come true so that his long term prophecy will be proven true and he will be shown as a prophet of God. That is the test of a prophet. A prophet doesn't take scripture and predict from it He takes divinely inspired Prophecy and proclaims it.

 

[TCassidy]

Definition of prophecy,
a. An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
b. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.

Seems it is by definition.

What definition springs to mind when you think of prophecy? Surely most would answer, “Predicting or foretelling the future.” Yet in order to achieve clarity in understanding what prophecy is, it is helpful to consider that the scriptural definition is much broader. By no means is prophecy restricted to today's popular usage—that is, predicting the future. Certainly the Bible does use it in this sense, but it also uses it in another important way. When properly understood, most of the Bible is prophecy. It all hinges on how we understand and define the term.

Prophecy comes from the Greek word propheteia, which literally means “to speak forth” (pro, “forth”; phemi, “to speak”). According to Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition, a prophet can be one who foretells the future or one who utters divinely inspired revelations.

So while prophecy is indeed prediction, it also means proclaiming God's truth. W.E. Vine says in his Dictionary of New Testament Words that a prophet is “a proclaimer of a divine message.... one to whom and through whom God speaks.” Vine also tells us that “propheteia... signifies the speaking forth of the mind and counsel of God.... Though much of Old Testament prophecy was purely predictive,... prophecy is not necessarily, nor even primarily, fore-telling. It is the declaration of that which cannot be known by natural means,... it is the forth-telling of the will of God, whether with reference to the past, the present, or the future” (s.v. “prophet,” “prophecy,” emphasis added).

John Meakin, Religion and Spirituality, The Other Prophecy, Winter 2000 Issue

 

[JonC]

So you know a prophet one who predicts something short term and has it come true so that his long term prophecy will be proven true and he will be shown as a prophet of God. That is the test of a prophet. A prophet doesn't take scripture and predict from it He takes divinely inspired Prophecy and proclaims it.

I was thinking more of prophets like in the Bible (like Jeremiah....not like Joseph Smith or Ellen White....or palm readers).




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[revmwc]

What definition springs to mind when you think of prophecy? Surely most would answer, “Predicting or foretelling the future.” Yet in order to achieve clarity in understanding what prophecy is, it is helpful to consider that the scriptural definition is much broader. By no means is prophecy restricted to today's popular usage—that is, predicting the future. Certainly the Bible does use it in this sense, but it also uses it in another important way. When properly understood, most of the Bible is prophecy. It all hinges on how we understand and define the term.

Prophecy comes from the Greek word propheteia, which literally means “to speak forth” (pro, “forth”; phemi, “to speak”). According to Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition, a prophet can be one who foretells the future or one who utters divinely inspired revelations.

So while prophecy is indeed prediction, it also means proclaiming God's truth. W.E. Vine says in his Dictionary of New Testament Words that a prophet is “a proclaimer of a divine message.... one to whom and through whom God speaks.” Vine also tells us that “propheteia... signifies the speaking forth of the mind and counsel of God.... Though much of Old Testament prophecy was purely predictive,... prophecy is not necessarily, nor even primarily, fore-telling. It is the declaration of that which cannot be known by natural means,... it is the forth-telling of the will of God, whether with reference to the past, the present, or the future” (s.v. “prophet,” “prophecy,” emphasis added).

John Meakin, Religion and Spirituality, The Other Prophecy, Winter 2000 Issue

And the O. T. gave a test for a prophet Deuteronomy 13:
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Notice his short term prophecy must come true. We have no such men in our age.
Jer. 28:9. “The prophet which prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to
pass, [then] shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him.”
True prophet's predictions must come to pass, ALL of them.
We have no such men in our time Prophecy has ceased and therefore so too the othet temporary things.

 

[TCassidy]

And the O. T. gave a test for a prophet

Yes, the foretelling prophet. But there are two types of prophet. You can't just ignore the other type of prophet!

That is the whole point of this discussion, which you seem, once again, to have missed!