Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice

[SovereignGrace]

Hi SG, since you have been studying Romans for 6 months I am sure you can provide the reference that says Abraham was saved before He was made perfect. Looking forward to your studied reply.

None of us are made perfect today. That is why sanctification is progressive. We also are not saved initially and that is it. We have been saved, are being saved, and will finally be saved. We are a work in progress until we die or He returns. So, Abram was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Look @ Peter for instance. When he proclaimed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus said it was not flesh and blood that revealed this to him, but His Father in heaven. That is a regenerated man, regenerated via God's Spirit.

And I have a riddle for you SG. Jesus arose from the tomb on the third day. If you believe no one was justified before the third day, how did the thief get to Paradise on day one? Just asking.

I never said no one was justified. That is your stance. No one is justified while in an unregenerate state. Even Adam Clarke, a free will Methodist, believed OT saints had the indwelling of the Spirit, just no it the plenitude we have today. I concur with Mr. Clarke. If someone is regenerated, they have been made alive, and no one in an unregenerate state is saved. If Abram/Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, David, Solomon, et al we not regenerated, they had not God's Spirit. Without His Spirit, they are none of His.

Could not being raise "for our justification" have the meaning that the risen Christ provides a basis for our faith that He is the way, the truth and the life. Therefore the resurrection strengthens our faith upon which is the basis for our justification when we are transferred into Christ. Just saying...

If Christ is not risen, our faith and preaching is futile. But this does not negate the fact the OT saints were regenerated/born anew/born from above.

 

[JonC]

None of us are made perfect today. That is why sanctification is progressive. We also are not saved initially and that is it. We have been saved, are being saved, and will finally be saved. We are a work in progress until we die or He returns. So, Abram was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Look @ Peter for instance. When he proclaimed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus said it was not flesh and blood that revealed this to him, but His Father in heaven. That is a regenerated man, regenerated via God's Spirit.


I never said no one was justified. That is your stance. No one is justified while in an unregenerate state. Even Adam Clarke, a free will Methodist, believed OT saints had the indwelling of the Spirit, just no it the plenitude we have today. I concur with Mr. Clarke. If someone is regenerated, they have been made alive, and no one in an unregenerate state is saved. If Abram/Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, David, Solomon, et al we not regenerated, they had not God's Spirit. Without His Spirit, they are none of His.


If Christ is not risen, our faith and preaching is futile. But this does not negate the fact the OT saints were regenerated/born anew/born from above.

I agree with you except maybe the comment "that is why sanctification is progressive". We are not made perfect in this life because we are looking to the resurrection where we will be made like Christ (Romans 8:29). I am just not sure that this is what you mean as your reply could also mean that we are being perfected in this lifetime. Insofar as that goes, I would agree that we are passing from glory to glory, but never to perfection until we are resurrected.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I see sanctification as a one time event, yet also progressive in our lives until we die or Christ returns.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And no...perfection is unatainable in this fleshly frame...a glorious change/transformation has to take place in glorification at our resurrection.

 

[JonC]

I see sanctification as a one time event, yet also progressive in our lives until we die or Christ returns.

Thanks. I agree. It is not that we are sanctified to a certain level (we are no more saved than the thief on the cross, or the brother who came to believe on his death bed). But we are sanctified when we are saved and we will continue to move towards that image of Christ until we take our dying breath.

 

[Van]

So you are saying that all sinners are brought by God under the new Covenant? And do you base the assurance of salvation upon your faith, or upon the One hom you placed your faith into? just seems that you place too high a premium on what you did to get saved...

Why not provide a quote of what I said, rather than put words in my mouth. Because Jesus became the propitiation for the whole world, that means the whole world is under the New Covenant in His blood. Thus Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice set all mankind under the New Covenant in His blood.

This is rather basic and obvious. Perhaps we should place a higher premium on bible study.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why not provide a quote of what I said, rather than put words in my mouth. Because Jesus became the propitiation for the whole world, that means the whole world is under the New Covenant in His blood. Thus Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice set all mankind under the New Covenant in His blood.

Wrong. It was God who was propitiated, not the world. Christ propitiated for God, not us. In this propitiation, God's wrath was appeased, satisfied, abated, &c. If the whole world w/o exception is no longer under God's wrath, if God's wrath has been appeased, then everybody in the world is saved. That is the logical conclusion to your stance, Van.

This is rather basic and obvious.

To you, apparently not.

Perhaps we should place a higher premium on bible study.

Please heed your own advice.

 

[Van]

And no...perfection is unatainable in this fleshly frame...a glorious change/transformation has to take place in glorification at our resurrection.

to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 12:23 indicates the spirits of those made righteous have been made perfect. Not the flesh, but the spirit.

For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Hebrews 10:14

 

[SovereignGrace]

to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 12:23 indicates the spirits of those made righteous have been made perfect. Not the flesh, but the spirit.

For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Hebrews 10:14

The inward man, the spirit within the believer, is what has been made perfect. Yet, we are still wrapped in sinful flesh and will sin. So, whilst in this fleshly frame, we will never be perfect, sinless, spotless, blameless.

 

[Van]

SG, no one said the world had been propitiated. Propitiation is a noun not a verb. Again to be under the New Covenant does not mean anyone has been placed in Christ and washed with His blood. Your effort to equate being under the New Covenant with being saved is nonsense. All mankind is under the New Covenant, meaning that Jesus is the only way, no other way, i.e. Old Covenant, or other religions, are applicable.

Every citizen of the USA is under the constitution, but that does not mean the Democrats follow its conditionals such as the 2d Amendment. Everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but all those not believing into Him shall perish.

 

[SovereignGrace]

SG, no one said the world had been propitiated. Propitiation is a noun not a verb. Again to be under the New Covenant does not mean anyone has been placed in Christ and washed with His blood. Your effort to equate being under the New Covenant with being saved is nonsense. All mankind is under the New Covenant, meaning that Jesus is the only way, no other way, i.e. Old Covenant, or other religions, are applicable.

Every citizen of the USA is under the constitution, but that does not mean the Democrats follow its conditionals such as the 2d Amendment. Everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but all those not believing into Him shall perish.

To follow this line of logic is to say the Philistines, the Babylonians, Hivites, Hittites, Jebusites, Amelakites et al were under the Law, too. Only Israel was under the Law.

Those in the New Covenant are those who are saved. The lost are not in the New Covenant...no matter how perversely you try to twist it.

 

[Van]

The inward man, the spirit within the believer, is what has been made perfect. Yet, we are still wrapped in sinful flesh and will sin. So, whilst in this fleshly frame, we will never be perfect, sinless, spotless, blameless.

Born anew believers have been made perfect spiritually. Abraham was made perfect spiritually after Christ died.

 

[Van]

To follow this line of logic is to say the Philistines, the Babylonians, Hivites, Hittites, Jebusites, Amelakites et al were under the Law, too. Only Israel was under the Law.

Those in the New Covenant are those who are saved. The lost are not in the New Covenant...no matter how perversely you try to twist it.

More obfuscation, more changing of subject. Because Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, that puts the whole world under the New Covenant.

I did not change Under to In, you did, which means you are the one twisting words. I am tired of your effort to sidetrack this thread.

 

[Van]

Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice ransomed, purchased, bought, the propitiatory means of salvation for the whole world. God is propitiated toward everyone placed spiritually into Christ.

On the cross Christ provided the means of salvation.
When God puts an individual into Christ after crediting their faith as righteousness, then they receive the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ where their sin burden (what God has against them) is removed. They are thus justified, made perfect and righteous.

 

[SovereignGrace]

More obfuscation, more changing of subject. Because Jesus became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, that puts the whole world under the New Covenant.

I did not change Under to In, you did, which means you are the one twisting words. I am tired of your effort to sidetrack this thread.

Again, whether one uses the word 'under' or 'in', does not change this. I am not obfuscating, just trying to correct your warped theology.

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more. By calling this covenant “new, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." [Hebrews 8:8-13] And then the Hebrews' writer reiterated this by writing “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds. Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. [Hebrews 10:16-18] This is also found in Jeremiah 31:31-34]

So the only ones 'under' or 'in' the New Covenant is the believer.

 

[Van]

Under is my view, in is your warped view. You are simply posting obfuscation.

Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice ransomed, purchased, bought, the propitiatory means of salvation for the whole world. God is propitiated toward everyone placed spiritually into Christ.

On the cross Christ provided the means of salvation.
When God puts an individual into Christ after crediting their faith as righteousness, then they receive the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ where their sin burden (what God has against them) is removed. They are thus justified, made perfect and righteous.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Under is my view, in is your warped view. You are simply posting obfuscation.

Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice ransomed, purchased, bought, the propitiatory means of salvation for the whole world. God is propitiated toward everyone placed spiritually into Christ.

On the cross Christ provided the means of salvation.
When God puts an individual into Christ after crediting their faith as righteousness, then they receive the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ where their sin burden (what God has against them) is removed. They are thus justified, made perfect and righteous.

I will leave you to your own misery. To borrow a quote from Brother Aaron..."You are a prime example of why the RCC kept the bible out of the hands of the laity."

 

[Van]

Thanks for ceasing to obfuscate, and hurl insults.

Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice ransomed, purchased, bought, the propitiatory means of salvation for the whole world. God is propitiated toward everyone placed spiritually into Christ.

On the cross Christ provided the means of salvation.
When God puts an individual into Christ after crediting their faith as righteousness, then they receive the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ where their sin burden (what God has against them) is removed. They are thus justified, made perfect and righteous.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Van handling God's word...

 

[Van]

SG, you seem to have endless supply of twaddle pictures. But to say you were going to leave, then continue to post speaks volumes.

Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice ransomed, purchased, bought, the propitiatory means of salvation for the whole world. God is propitiated toward everyone placed spiritually into Christ.

On the cross Christ provided the means of salvation.
When God puts an individual into Christ after crediting their faith as righteousness, then they receive the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ where their sin burden (what God has against them) is removed. They are thus justified, made perfect and righteous.