Salvation and God's Sovereignty

[SovereignGrace]

The denials:

Oh puh-leeze!!! Liar...flat out liar.

We are saved through faith.

Agreed.

God credits our faith as righteousness

We deny your grotesque meaning of it.

Our faith provides our access to the saving grace provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Our...our...our...you really need a mirror for you are so self-absorbed it's sickening. Until YOU do YOUR part, God is nothing but a Spectater. Puh-leeze. It was God who gave YOU YOUR faith.

We are chosen for salvation through faith in the Truth.

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because he has chosen you as a fristfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.[2 Thessalonians 2:13] We were first chosen by God from the creation of the world[Ephesians 1:4] and when it pleased Him to save us, quickened us, gave us faith and repentance, and were saved.

Men of flesh can understand spiritual milk.

The bible states otherwise. But keep mangling God's word...you're doing a fine job.

 

[Van]

Lets see, first the denial of denying scripture.
Then either an agreement we are saved through faith by grace, or a denial of scripture.
Then a denial that God credits our faith as righteousness.
Then a denial that it is our faith and not an instilled faith, that provides access to saving grace.
Then a denial, (using an edited rewrite) of 2 Thess. 2:13. But just click on the verse and you will see the actual unedited verse.
Then a denial of 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3, were Paul speaks to new Christians as men of flesh using spiritual milk. Thus men of flesh can understand spiritual milk. But they deny this too.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No one denies the bible...just your grotesque handling of it. Rippon, MartinMarprelate, GreekTim et al have tried to correct you, but you won't listen. Time for ignore. S'long.

 

[Van]

I sure hope you stop your obfuscation and insults.

For the record, it is not "grotesque handing" to believe:
1) We are saved through faith by grace. Ephesians 2:8
2) That God credits our faith as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5/24
3) That our faith provides our access into the saving grace provided by Christ. Romans 5:2
4) That we were chosen for salvation through faith in the Truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
5) That Paul spoke to new Christians as men of flesh using spiritual milk, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another denial of another passage of scripture. Romans 3:27 Your claim has been excluded.

Y1 simply denies one scripture after another.

Next, his assertion misrepresents my view. How could we put our love and devotion in Christ if we had not had Christ revealed to us through God's word and the witness of believers? So this "without any" is false and misleading.

Romans 5:2 declares that our faith provides our access to the saving grace provided by Christ's Subsitutionary Sacrifice. So yet another denial of the obvious.

I am excluding NO scripture here van, bujt again, is it your decision to accept jesus made on your own that enables God to save you, or did you believe in Him becaise He first "believed" in you and moved to save you then?

 

[Van]

Y1, since you provide a quote, your misrepresentations are obvious. God's redemption plan is to save sinners. You are disagreeing with God. For you to continue to deny we are saved through faith (not saved and given faith) marks you as excluding scripture after scripture after scripture. I provided a list of 5 and you deny all of them.

 

[Yeshua1]

Y1, since you provide a quote, your misrepresentations are obvious. God's redemption plan is to save sinners. You are disagreeing with God. For you to continue to deny we are saved through faith (not saved and given faith) marks you as excluding scripture after scripture after scripture. I provided a list of 5 and you deny all of them.

I deny that faith is the very basis my salvation, true, for that ALL is based upon jesus Christ, and nothing less!

And deny that sinners spiritual dead come somehow 'will themselves" out of their coffins and choice to live again!

 

[Van]

Y1, you deny you were saved by grace through faith. You make the false claim we are saved, then given faith.

And you deny that the spiritually dead sinners were entering the kingdom of heaven, Matthew 23:13.

So we can add another scripture to the list of scriptures you deny.

At some point, one would think the penny would drop and you would come to your senses.

 

[Van]

Romans 3:22 says God action was "through faith or faithfulness"
Romans 3:25 ditto
Romans 3:26 ditto
Romans 3:30 ditto
Romans 3:31 ditto

Can you imagine a more grotesque handling of God's word than to deny many of God's actions toward us are through faith or are based on faith?

Galatians 2:16
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 3:14
Galatians 3:22
Galatians 3:26

Ephesians 2:8
Ephesians 3:12
Ephesians 3:17

Philippians 3:9

Colossians 2:12

2 Timothy 3:15

Hebrews 6:12

1 Peter 1:5.

It seems that the central idea is that God puts us into Christ based on crediting our faith as righteousness. Try reading all these verses with that view in mind.

 

[Van]

In fairness, some of the verses referenced do not address God action on the basis of our faith in Christ. Seven refer to God's action through the faithfulness of Christ. Romans 3:22, 3:26, Galatians 2:16, 2:20, 3:22, Ephesians 3:12 and Philippians 3:9. These are taken as subjective genitives.

 

[Darrell C]

I know this analogy is going to be poor, as all analogies that require a physical element are when discussing salvation by faith, but I'll throw it out there, so feel free to critique:

Darrell C is bleeding to death, and needs to get to the hospital, but Darrell is suffering from a head wound that has disoriented him, and doesn't realize he is bleeding to death. Van rips the rear-view mirror off his windshield and shows Darrell the wound, and Darrell recognizes how bad it is. He is at the train station where he could get on a slow moving commuter train that would take hours for him to get to the hospital. He sees Van is driving a Jalopy that isn't in the best shape. Three tires are almost flat, smoke billows out from under the hood, and Van is wearing sunglasses though it's night. Van shouts to Darrell, "Get in! You need to go to the ER pronto!" Darrell, realizing he has to do something, so, places faith in Van, and his Jalopy, gets in, and Van successfully delivers him to the ER hours before the train would have.

Now what was Darrell saved by? Van, the Jalopy, or his faith to get into the Jalopy?

And for the heckler, Darrell didn't call 911 because Clinton had been elected and had shifted all Emergency Services funds to advancing the Liberal Agenda.




God bless.

 

[Van]

Root cause analysis is an interesting field. Items like immediate cause, proximate cause and root cause are found all over the landscape. Scripture tells us we are saved through faith in Christ. Now that journey may have started by being born into a believing family. Perhaps it was the example of parents who believed God's Word. Perhaps it was the promises found in God's word. Perhaps it was the Preacher who presented Jesus covered in His own blood for all mankind. Perhaps it was the person with child-like faith who simply trusted Jesus because he/she knew the song Jesus loves Me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.

But this is obvious, it is God who acts to save those who are dying, through faith accredited by Him alone.

 

[Darrell C]

But this is obvious, it is God who acts to save those who are dying, through faith accredited by Him alone.

And I think that is the underlying point of contention here: the root cause is and always has been God.

We love Him because He first loved us.

We didn't decide to be saved before first being called. He does the calling, He is the Savior. We are saved, at the heart of the matter, by God alone. To think otherwise imposes an ability in man that Scripture flatly denies.

As I often say, the only "free will" man will ever exercise in a salvific context is to exercise that which his nature and condition affords him...rebellion and rejection. And even in that, God must first initiate an understanding of the truth so that the unregenerate can cater to their nature.


God bless.

 

[Van]

Yes Darrell C, the root cause is God alone who saves us "through faith." Some would deny we are saved through our faith in Christ.

The lost are called through the gospel, it is the power of God for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:14

You can claim the lost will never seek God, but Matthew 23:13 clearly teaches the assertion is false.

Over a dozen verses say God's saving actions are based on faith or are through faith. For anyone to deny this basic Christianity 101 doctrine is mind boggling.

2 Timothy 3:15, "and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

 

[Van]

Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Romans 3:30
since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

Romans 9:32
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”

Galatians 3:14
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Ephesians 3:17
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

2 Timothy 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:12
so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

1 Peter 1:5
who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[Darrell C]

Yes Darrell C, the root cause is God alone who saves us "through faith." Some would deny we are saved through our faith in Christ.

The lost are called through the gospel, it is the power of God for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:14

But then you go on to deny what you say here, Van, which is "God is the Root Cause."

Either you believe that, or you don't. And the next statement...

You can claim the lost will never seek God, but Matthew 23:13 clearly teaches the assertion is false.

...seems to deny you do believe "God is the Root Cause."

And that is what is going to maintain the Calv/Arm dispute.

And there is really no need for it, because I think in large part everyone here is going to be in agreement that God saves men through faith, the issue underlying the contention being that you imply that it is our faith which is the Root Cause.

Here is the Root Cause:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)


7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


God.

God creates the faith men come to have by first showing man his condition. In the Old Testament...the Word of God, whether through direct preaching of Prophets, or indirect teaching of Teachers...showed men their need of a Savior. And that Savior has always been...

...God.

You can claim the lost will never seek God, but Matthew 23:13 clearly teaches the assertion is false.

It's not a claim, it's just a Basic Bible Principle, Van.

The Lost will not one day decide "Today I am going to seek God."

God intervenes and shows them why they must seek God.

Root Cause.

Over a dozen verses say God's saving actions are based on faith or are through faith. For anyone to deny this basic Christianity 101 doctrine is mind boggling.

I don't think anyone is denying that. It's pretty clear, we are saved by grace (which is attributed, not to men, but to God) through faith (which is attributed to men, but generated by the Root Cause).

2 Timothy 3:15, "and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

And that is how men have always been saved, by God's grace and mercy through faith. That does not mean we divorce repentance or understanding from this either.

Abraham understood and believed that God was speaking to him, and he obeyed. His obedience did not precede...the Root Cause. He could not have believed God if God has not first initiated contact. He would not have left his country and sought another if God had not first instructed him.

Root Cause, brother, Root Cause. No-one denies we are saved by grace through faith, but, we first look at the Root Cause which validates God's Sovereignty, then we look at the means, which is not faith, but the Cross of Christ. Men had faith in Messiah, this is well documented, but, they were not forgiven their sins until Messiah died in their place. They all died in faith, but they were not made perfect, and they received not the Promise/s. Their faith saved them, truly, but, if we divorce their faith from the Root Cause Himself, then we would have the same scenario we have with Jews today who are still placing faith in the Messiah they think is yet to come. Not Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but the Messiah they have for themselves created out of Scripture. Even Muslims have faith in a Messiah.

We have to involve all of these elements, brother, and the fact will always come back to...God is the Root Cause.


God bless.

 

[Van]

Hi Darrel C, first, let me call into question your view of root cause. Because God alone established His redemption plan, that included saving people by grace through faith, God remains the root cause of salvation.

Second, if you read the verses, it is our faith, that is in view. Recall Romans 4:5? But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Third, we are indwelt after God puts us in Christ, sealed in Him. Therefore the faith God credited was our faith before we were indwelt.

Fourth, you say God creates our faith. Well God's revelation certainly is the basis for our faith in the name of Christ. But if you mean instilled faith, that is a mistaken view.

Fifth, you deny Matthew 23:13 where natural men were seeking God, actually in the process of entering the Kingdom of God. There is nothing I can say if you simply ignore the obvious.

Sixth, our faith in Christ is the faith we come to based on accepting the gospel of Christ. That is the basic bible principle.

Seventh, God is the root cause, but He achieves redemption through our faith in Christ.

 

[percho]

Hi Darrel C, first, let me call into question your view of root cause. Because God alone established His redemption plan, that included saving people by grace through faith, God remains the root cause of salvation.

Second, if you read the verses, it is our faith, that is in view. Recall Romans 4:5? But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Third, we are indwelt after God puts us in Christ, sealed in Him. Therefore the faith God credited was our faith before we were indwelt.

Fourth, you say God creates our faith. Well God's revelation certainly is the basis for our faith in the name of Christ. But if you mean instilled faith, that is a mistaken view.

Fifth, you deny Matthew 23:13 where natural men were seeking God, actually in the process of entering the Kingdom of God. There is nothing I can say if you simply ignore the obvious.

Sixth, our faith in Christ is the faith we come to based on accepting the gospel of Christ. That is the basic bible principle.

Seventh, God is the root cause, but He achieves redemption through our faith in Christ.

I have a few questions for you and any others who would care to address the questions.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth <(makes righteous) the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5 KJV
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:19 KJV

For both of those statements to be, the truth, of the Spirit of Truth, does not, the obedience of one have to be the faith of someone in order for God to justify, make righteous, one?

Is that obedience of one, the becoming obedient unto death even the death of the cross?

When Jesus handing on the cross said, "It is finished, Father unto your hands I commend my spirit," did he not become the, obedience of faith, The belief of God the Father in the obedience of his Son born of woman?

It is finished, I have done what thou sent me to do?

Is not Jesus the Son of the living God becoming obedient unto death, the faith of God the Father?

God told Abraham the faith of God. You, Abraham, are going to have a son (singular) and through that son (singular) you will become the father of many nations by the obedience of the Son unto death even the death of the cross. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Abraham died if that faith not having received the promises.

By the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[percho]

Van you wrote: Third, we are indwelt after God puts us in Christ, sealed in Him. Therefore the faith God credited was our faith before we were indwelt.

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith. Gal 3:14

We are indwelt with the Spirit because Jesus became obedient unto death Phis 2:8. the faith of the Father, Phil 2:9 Wherefore (because of that obedience) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Raised him from the dead exalting him to his own right hand. Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

We received the Holy Spirit hearing of the faith of God. Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

We receiver the Holy Spirit because Jesus the Son was obedient unto death even the death of the cross. He obediently went away in death, The Father then raised him from the dead, gave him the promise of the Holy Spirit which could then be shed on us, sealing us, unto, the redemption of the body.

IMHO

 

[Van]

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth <(makes righteous) the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5 KJV
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:19 KJV

For both of those statements to be, the truth, of the Spirit of Truth, does not, the obedience of one have to be the faith of someone in order for God to justify, make righteous, one?

Yes! We must believe Christ died to become the propitiation for the whole world. Rather than trusting in our own works, we are to trust in Christ who justifies the ungodly. The "obedience of the One" refers to Christ doing His Fathers will and going to the cross.

When Jesus handing on the cross said, "It is finished, Father unto your hands I commend my spirit," did he not become the, obedience of faith, The belief of God the Father in the obedience of his Son born of woman?

No! Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

God told Abraham the faith of God.

No! God told Abraham the promise and prophesy of God.